Dog Therapy Business

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underwritten by the Banks of Sun Prairie.

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My name is James Kademan.

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Oh, my goodness gracious.
What do I do?

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I do some stuff.
Entrepreneur, author, speaker,

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helpful coach to small business
owners across the country.

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And today it’s kind of funny about
sidetracked, I forgot her name.

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Josie.
Josie is hanging around with us.

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And today we have Cindy Brosig,
owner of Operation Heel.

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That’s H-E-E-L correct.

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Cindy, how are you doing today?
Good, thanks.

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How are you?
I’m doing very well.

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I’m excited because I guess just to let

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people know, you were a student in
business planning class four years ago.

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Four years ago.
It’s been a while.

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Yeah.
And now I am inside your business.

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Yes.
It’s awesome.

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So I want you to tell us,
what is Operation Heel?

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So Operation Heel is a nurse led animal

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assisted therapy practice
and therapeutic dog training.

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Nice.
All right.

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When you say therapeutic dog training,

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are you training the dogs or
using them to therapy for people?

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Yeah.
Well, I’m working with them and humans

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to enhance wellness either
in the prevention, maintenance,

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or recovery from illness,
or else I call it disease.

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Oh, nice.
Yeah, I like it.

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This is the wonder dog here.

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Yeah, this is one of them.

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I have four rescue dogs.

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I work with two of them.

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I sometimes will bring
in my other dog, Emily.

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She’s a little older,
and she likes older people.

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All right.
Yeah.

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So dogs have preferences on what age
group that they like to work with.

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Josie, she likes kids.

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She has from the beginning, ted as well,
which I think you met, we brought Ted to class.

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Yeah.

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And he’ll be eight this year,
so he’s looking at retirement.

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It’s a hard job.
All right.

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Yeah.

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So you have to tell me, how does
therapy with dogs for people work?

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You bring the people into this space.
Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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Why I like this space is
because of being out in nature.

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So all of my classes are
indoors and outdoors.

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All of my programs.

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If we were to open up this door,
it opens to a fenced in area.

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I like dogs and humans
to work on an off leash.

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All right.
So I like the freedom of it.

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All right.

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And how do you figure out which dog
will work with which person?

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It’s a great question.

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Energy.

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So if somebody is a little bit more
high energy, I call it spirited.

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I will bring in a higher energy,

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spirited dog because they tend
to match each other and work together.

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For instance, there are times so people
that are maybe suffering from depression,

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we maybe start with a dog,
which is a little bit more low key to help

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get them comfortable and then we will
bring in a dog that’s a little bit more

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energetic to kind of help
stimulate them into movement.

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All right, that makes sense.
Yes.

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Now, that leads to the question, how do
you train the dog to be a therapy dog?

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Awesome question.

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So you can’t train a dog to like
people, but you can train them

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but that’s the key to therapy.
Right.

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It’s working with a dog and communicating
and how do I form a relationship.

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Right.

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It takes social skills,
it takes body behavior, movements,

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opening your body up
to someone or being closed in.

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But what I do help with the
training part is manners.

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So, for instance,

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if we have somebody that’s in that’s maybe
a little bit more nervous, anxiety,

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I obviously don’t want
the dog to jump on them.

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Not helping.
No.

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That just might make things worse.

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So I do train for manners,

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but obviously I look for a dog who wants
to work with people, who likes people.

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So it’s more or almost
a personality thing.

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Absolutely.
And stuff to train personality.

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Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.

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Absolutely.
And all dogs, pure bred, mixed bread work.

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Nice.
Now, how do people find you?

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I know that you exist because I
wouldn’t know before I met you.

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I didn’t know that dog
therapy was a thing.

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Right.
Had no idea.

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But I will say, I do want to say that you

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were instrumental in connecting me
with the people helped me on my way.

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You honestly, not only were you a great

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motivator, you’re like, you can do this,
but you are practical about it.

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So I thank you for that.

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Oh, you’re welcome.

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If you have any questions, talk to James.

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I loved your honest, truthful approach.
Oh, thanks.

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That’s why I’m here today.

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Let’s be honest.

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But this is a reward because I get
to see your business and launch it.

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I remember when you were talking about

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the business, it took me a little
while to wrap my head around what.

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It was, as it does for everybody.

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All I can think is, how do you
market a business like that?

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I imagine that’s going to be
one of the biggest challenges.

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It was because education was key.

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It’s not very well known here.

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When people think of therapy dogs,
they think of the dogs visiting hospitals,

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clinics, school groups, reading,
and that is therapeutic.

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Those dogs are trained for manners
and being in large groups.

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The handlers are great.

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She was going to be.

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So this is what I love
about you can’t train this.

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Right.

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Josie is telling us
that she needs attention.

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She’s reminding us to have a little fun.
Right.

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Anyways, yeah.
So it’s hard for me.

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I felt like I was competing against

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organizations that were
already doing it for free.

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Oh.
But what I bring to the program,

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the therapy part, is my experience in
nursing, whether it’s in mental health.

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As nurses, we are trained
to work in all sectors.

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So whether it’s postpartum to mental
health institutions, you name it.

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Surgery.
Yeah.

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All right.

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Often when I would go so I did start
on as a volunteer therapy dog team.

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Oh, really?
I did.

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Where we went into hospitals, ted and I.

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My
intro into it was because of my husband

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being in the military here in Madison,
visiting military children.

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So we were,
I guess, attending events called, like,

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Yellow Ribbon or used military
kids camp at up in woods.

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What I was finding is,
oh, this is really good.

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But now we can take this to the next level

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where, let’s say there’s
a kid that’s struggling.

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If you’re just doing a one time visit,

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it might not seem like it,
but to be able to work with them

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on a regular basis, making goals,
that’s where the therapy comes in.

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Nice.

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All right, so let’s back up a step
because you’re kind of alluding to it.

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Yes.

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Ted, just as a reminder,
was your was he your first therapy dog?

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Yes, he was my first bully.

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We went through every single
training class you could think of.

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He was definitely more of the shy dog.

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He liked people, but he was
just more shy of environment.

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So we got to work
on that a little bit more.

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No dog is perfect, so he’s up there.
All right.

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£100 a sweet love £100
philadelphia’s only 60.

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Nice dog.
Yeah, she’s great.

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So you were a nurse before?
Yes.

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And what made you decide to start your own

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business, regardless of what
type of business you are?

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I guess personally,
I saw the effects of having a dog.

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Well, I wasn’t diagnosed,
but I did have postpartum depression,

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looking back, and it was my dog Aggie
who really helped get me through that.

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And I can give you an example.

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Some of the things
when you have postpartum depression is you

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don’t even remember because
you’re in such a dark place.

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You’re already sleep deprived.
Hormones.

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I mean, there’s a lot
of things that play into it.

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But the biggest factor for me was
when my husband was gone.

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So my husband was in the military,
so he deployed a lot.

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When I first had kids
and I was home alone a lot.

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So at night, I would get
up full blown anxiety.

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Oh, my gosh.
Someone was breaking in the house.

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I mean, literally.

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But what would get me out of that cycle
was looking at aging my dog,

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because I know she would bark if
there was someone in the house.

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All right.

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So it’s literally me going, okay, she’s
not barking, and she’d walk with me.

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I could tell.
She was like, okay, I’m walking with you.

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She was like, okay.

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I’m not sure why she’s
walking around at two, three.

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So that was a big part of it.

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Personally, I didn’t really reflect
on that until I got into the volunteering

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part and seeing how and then
I was like, oh, I get it.

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To see how it can help turn your life

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around, whether you’re suffering
from anxiety, depression, even pain.

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Chronic pain.
All right.

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Interesting.

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So you are in the military as well.
Yes.

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All right.
And what did you do in there?

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I was a nurse over eight and a half years.
Wow.

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Yeah.
All right.

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So nurses the military and then
moved into private sector.

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Correct.

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And I was a school nurse,
so then I separated.

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I finished my tour,
separated from the Air Force.

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My husband got a job here because he was
in the Army, I was in the Air Force.

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We just couldn’t make it work finding
a base that would take both services.

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Okay.
It’s just a pretty siloed.

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Yeah.

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So I stayed home for a couple of years,

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but then I did use my GI bill
and got my Masters in nursing.

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Oh, wow.

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And then I started to study animals
with therapy, and I’m like, oh,

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this is more than just
not just volunteering, but volunteering,

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but in a more professional
capacity, I guess.

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All right, nice.
Yeah.

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So then you said, hey,
let’s start a business.

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How did your husband react when you’re.

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Like, hey, at first he was like, sure,

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I’ll support you, until we started
looking at what things cost.

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Sure.

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You don’t want to start a jewelry business
or something that would be cheaper?

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No, right, exactly.
Yeah.

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All right.

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Like I said, going back to your class,
that was the first introduction.

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So I’m a nurse by trade.
I’m a giver.

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Right.
I want to just give everything.

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And it was a hard concept for me to come

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around that, oh, I can apply for grants
and take that, or I can

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do a lot of things for free,
which there’s good and bad with that.

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And you had mentioned that as well.

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Starting up is not a bad idea if there’s

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no cost, just to get people in the door
and to build awareness right.

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Doing classes or workshops
or what have you.

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But yeah, I think you are totally right
about how long it takes

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to get to this point,
because look at four years, and, I mean,

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we’re just now feeling like this
is stable, we can move forward.

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Got it.
All right.

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But you get this whole building,

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and it’s going to take
six months, a year to put up.

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No, actually, we moved it.

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So I was practicing in my backyard
in Sunbury, and that’s, I think,

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when I was starting to take
your class or towards the end.

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Yeah.

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Because you were talking about getting
a place in the country correct.

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To have the room to be able to do that.
Right.

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And this was just before everything, like,
housing went up, and we started to look,

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and this place came up, and we’re like,
okay, if we’re going to do this,

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we’re going to just do it all the way
we did take the leap, which was huge.

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And I know you’ve always said hey,
if you’re going to do it, go full and

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him and Han, you’re not
going to get anywhere.

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Step your toes off the diving board.
Yes.

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And so we did, and like I said,

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we anticipated some costs, but again,
like you said, so much more, be prepared.

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But at the other end of that is if you

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have a good plan in place,
and I know you are really good about this,

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have a good, strong business plan,
look at the future.

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Don’t just look at what can I do now?
Right.

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I think there’s so many
pieces that all carry weight.

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Yeah.

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You want to be prepared and really
think about your expenses.

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Yeah.
And be flexible.

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Because my path has changed.

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I mean, it’s a total I need to rerun.

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Yeah, I want to talk to you about

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that because I was looking at your website
and all that you do,

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and I want to say that you’ve brought
in from when we first talked.

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Yes.
Because before you were talking,

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you were talking about working exclusively
with vet families, I believe, correct?

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Yes, absolutely.

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And I did do that for a while.

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But I guess the obstacle and if you’re
a military family,

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things change in a minute,
which I was flexible,

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but it’s hard for them to commit because
either if they’re not moving right,

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or suddenly a spouse or partner is gone
and now you don’t have time to come.

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Plus the other part of that,
too, is programs.

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There’s a lot of programs out there

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which is, I don’t know,
this could be taken wrong.

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So.
For instance.

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When I being a veteran and having

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a veterinary business and I
would offer my services.

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A lot of times military
organizations would say.

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Yeah.
But you’re not a nonprofit.

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So I’m sorry.

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We can’t advertise you or
we can’t work with you.

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But even though I would offer
like discounted or free programs.

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But strictly.

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And this is out there.

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So I’m not saying anything
that people don’t already know.

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But so hard.

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So you think you have your veteran

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and military group and support,
but then yet if you’re not,

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if you’re looked upon, as
I think they call it,

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like propositioning families for
that kind of because of just how

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my service was saying, they kind
of put up a lot of barriers for me.

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Interesting.
So I had to pivot.

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All right, so it’s so interesting because

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people assume myself included in the town,
that nonprofit just means either free or

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you’re not bringing any money
in or something like that.

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But in the end, there’s people with jobs
working at nonprofits and there’s a lot

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of nonprofits that are pushing
a lot of money around.

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Absolutely.
So it’s like nonprofit in name

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and probably in taxes,
but from a business standpoint, right.

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They still have the cash flow.

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They still have to bring money in to pay
for the services that they’re right.

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And they contract with civilian services
so it was a very interesting conversation.

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I’ve had several other
organizations, all right?

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And I’m not the only veteran that space

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this, so I would love
for that conversation to open.

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I remember being a part of
the group was escaping me,

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but it’s something about it was an online
thing, helping veterans start businesses.

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Like, I taught one of those.

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This is more you’re answering questions
that veterans would have about businesses.

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Okay.
And I remember that I had a blog,

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so somebody had asked about pricing,
whatever, and so I pointed them to a blog,

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and it got flagged because they said, hey,
you can’t send people to your website.

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The answer to their question is there.

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I’m not going to take this custom email.

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It’s a small novel.

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Right.

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So I’m like, you’re kind of punishing
me for doing this work that’s for free.

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Right.

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So I’m just like, all right, I don’t
have to answer questions anymore, right.

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Like, if it’s going to be more
of a headache to help you exactly.

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I’m trying to help you as
best I can for no cost.

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Yes.
And you’re punishing me for it.

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Yeah.
Find your own answer.

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Absolutely.
You can google it.

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Right.
And you hear all the time support

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a certain business and then not to feel
supported among your own community.

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Yeah.

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So I get that.
It seems to be like somebody

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in a committee that has no idea what
they’re doing made this decision,

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or a group of people, I guess,
involvement on boards like, oh, my gosh,

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a bunch of people that don’t know
what’s going on making this decision.

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You just got to roll with it and just
like, okay, we’re going to chase our

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market somewhere else where
you guys aren’t involved.

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Absolutely.
Okay.

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So it sounds like you
had to Pivot that way.

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I did, which actually was the best thing
because on one of my Pivots in the school

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system, I had a parent reach out and say,
is this only for military kids?

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And I said no.
Yeah.

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And so that’s when I knew,
like, oh, this is a good Pivot.

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It should be open to everybody.

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My specialty is in military
family, but I’m absolutely.

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The service is needed by all right.

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So where before you would
have told her, sorry, yeah.

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Now you can like, oh, yeah,
you can breathe, man.

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You can breathe and have problems.
Exactly.

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We got it.

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All right, so how are you
marketing this business now?

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Honestly?
Through Facebook.

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All right.
Paid ads or posts?

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No post.

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I’ve partnered with some rescues okay.

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Dog rescues.

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And they’ve been and so helping
them with some of their dogs.

[00:18:11]
So we have this really nice partnership.

[00:18:14]
So they come in their fosters
can come in any time.

[00:18:16]
I help with training and helping teach
them, like, okay, you’ve got this puppy

[00:18:20]
that’s just acting a little
different than others.

[00:18:23]
So it’s like teaching, educating.

[00:18:25]
So now they as a foster,
if they get another dog in similar they

[00:18:30]
can start working with that dog
right away in exchange.

[00:18:34]
And they work with trainers all the time.

[00:18:36]
And I don’t charge for my services.

[00:18:37]
I have four rescues.
All right.

[00:18:39]
It does hit the heart.

[00:18:43]
And because they’re happy with what I’ve
been able to help them with,

[00:18:47]
they share when I have classes because,
let’s be honest, all dogs need classes.

[00:18:52]
Right.

[00:18:54]
And help at some point,

[00:18:57]
especially since we haven’t been able
to get out in the last two years.

[00:19:00]
Right.
Yeah.

[00:19:01]
Not used to seeing people other people.
Right.

[00:19:03]
Or people in math.
Sure.

[00:19:06]
I didn’t even think about that.
Yeah.

[00:19:07]
That was really big for a while.
All right.

[00:19:10]
Interesting you alluded to this
question that I’ve been thinking about.

[00:19:15]
When you are doing work with dogs,

[00:19:17]
people in need of some kind,
emotional, physical, whatever.

[00:19:20]
Yeah.
It’s going to be difficult

[00:19:22]
to keep your business going or charge
for your services when you feel

[00:19:28]
emotionally attached
to what they have going on.

[00:19:29]
You just want to help out.

[00:19:31]
When you’re in a business like yours or
even a therapy business of some kind

[00:19:35]
of you want to just help and we’ll
figure out the money later.

[00:19:38]
But the money’s got to pay
for this and keep rolling.

[00:19:42]
So you can offer this service continuum.
Right.

[00:19:44]
So how do you navigate
that little tight row?

[00:19:47]
Yeah.

[00:19:48]
It was really hard in the beginning.

[00:19:50]
I said yes to everything and everybody,
but what I learned, obviously, is, okay,

[00:19:58]
so now I need this piece of equipment or
now I have an autistic child coming in,

[00:20:03]
so I need to have special
tools for them to handle.

[00:20:09]
Right.

[00:20:10]
Slowly my charges were getting
higher than what I was bringing in.

[00:20:16]
And so there’s just a point where I look

[00:20:18]
at money as literally
an energetic exchange.

[00:20:22]
This is just for so it was
a big block in my mind.

[00:20:26]
Like you said, being a nurse,
you give 110%.

[00:20:30]
I know most people would,
but just my profession in general.

[00:20:34]
Right.
Yeah.

[00:20:35]
So I just had to just turn my mindset
like this is for the greater good.

[00:20:42]
There’s value in this.
Yes.

[00:20:45]
Valuing myself was huge.

[00:20:47]
And that was something you said also,
James.

[00:20:51]
I could just go back in my syllabus
and say James was right.

[00:20:54]
James was right here.
He was right.

[00:20:56]
Tell my wife that.
Right.

[00:20:59]
Yeah.
And my husband, who is more of a business

[00:21:03]
guy, he was, I have to say,
probably my biggest cheerleader

[00:21:06]
and sometimes my biggest
motivator, like, okay, this is enough.

[00:21:15]
You can’t continue to do this to yourself.

[00:21:19]
You want more dogs going out, you.

[00:21:22]
Have money coming in so that you
can keep doing what you’re doing.

[00:21:26]
Absolutely.
That’s cool.

[00:21:27]
Has it been tough talking with people
about the whole money thing?

[00:21:31]
Because I know sometimes they’re it is

[00:21:34]
with the call answering service will take
calls for therapists and people want

[00:21:38]
to tell you their life story
and you’re like, I’m out.

[00:21:41]
Oh, wow.
We got to get you on the calendar.

[00:21:43]
We got to align you with a therapist,
and we got to get your payment

[00:21:46]
information, whether that’s insurance
or credit card or whatever.

[00:21:49]
Right.

[00:21:49]
You need these things before we
can go into solving the problems.

[00:21:53]
Absolutely.

[00:21:55]
I guess we being the call answering

[00:21:57]
service, we can intercept very easily
because we’re the call answering service.

[00:22:01]
We’re not the therapist.
Right.

[00:22:03]
Or you’re the therapist.

[00:22:05]
And I feel like this is back when I was
at Printer repair company,

[00:22:09]
back before I had people answering
phones that gets a technician.

[00:22:13]
They’re just like,
let me tell you my problem.

[00:22:15]
You can tell me exactly
how to fix it for free.

[00:22:21]
I know.
I spent some time,

[00:22:23]
literally an hour and a half,
and my husband’s like, all right, unpaid.

[00:22:32]
I always did free consultations because

[00:22:35]
people would call and say,
I don’t know what you do.

[00:22:37]
How can you help my kids
get into background?

[00:22:40]
And then it’s like, it’s just automatic.
Right.

[00:22:42]
I’m going to start taking
my assessment history.

[00:22:45]
But I think how I got through that too,
was I’m like, okay,

[00:22:50]
so let’s re look at where my licensing,
my nursing licensing can help.

[00:22:55]
All right.

[00:22:56]
I got myself into programs through

[00:23:00]
the state that would help
families pay for my services.

[00:23:04]
So what that did was it forced me to look

[00:23:08]
like, okay, how can I help these people
out, but still so that I can get paid.

[00:23:13]
Right.
And so that was another huge win.

[00:23:16]
Yeah.

[00:23:19]
I guess the case workers so that it was

[00:23:23]
educating them, like, oh,
so you trained service dogs?

[00:23:25]
And I’m like, no.

[00:23:28]
You trained therapy dogs?

[00:23:29]
I’m like, no.

[00:23:33]
And it was a lot of drawing up handouts

[00:23:36]
and sending documents,
and until now that they kind of have

[00:23:40]
an idea what I do, they can say, oh,
hey, I’ve got this client for you.

[00:23:44]
Services get paid for.
Okay.

[00:23:46]
Because the majority of my population
is socioeconomically challenged.

[00:23:52]
I got you.
Okay.

[00:23:54]
Interesting.
Was that it just happened?

[00:23:57]
That’s how it’s feared,
or is that typical?

[00:24:00]
It is typical because if we look at when

[00:24:03]
a child is born in poverty,
they don’t have the tools and the support

[00:24:09]
system to get good nutrition
or their reading skills.

[00:24:17]
Got it.
A lot of delay.

[00:24:18]
Not all of it, but it’s a big part of it.
Interesting.

[00:24:21]
Okay.

[00:24:23]
I did not.

[00:24:24]
Didn’t see that one.
Yeah.

[00:24:25]
I guess it’s interesting because when you

[00:24:28]
look at patterns for marketing
of any business right.

[00:24:33]
It reminds me of teaching that class.

[00:24:35]
I think this was a different
group of students.

[00:24:38]
We had a pretty good group.
We had a very good group.

[00:24:40]
Yeah, we have a very good group.

[00:24:43]
There’s a woman that when I was talking

[00:24:44]
about marketing and finding
your target market yes.

[00:24:49]
Push into that target market because
it can’t afford to market to everyone.

[00:24:52]
That’s right.

[00:24:53]
And I don’t think that was the same class
that you were in, but there was a woman

[00:24:57]
that got upset because she said,
how can you ignore everyone else?

[00:25:04]
How can you target, let’s just say men,
women, sociate, economic class,

[00:25:10]
demographic, what road they’re driving on,
like, pick your niche for whatever you’re

[00:25:16]
marketing in based on whatever
it is that you’re selling.

[00:25:18]
How can you separate people like that?

[00:25:21]
She was taking it as this political thing,

[00:25:23]
and I’m like, you’re not saying
that you won’t help the other people.

[00:25:27]
You’re just saying, I have so
much money to spend on marketing.

[00:25:29]
Right.
And I got to spend it to the people

[00:25:32]
that are more likely
to become clients of mine.

[00:25:35]
Absolutely.
So when I know that my typical client is

[00:25:39]
this, I’m going to pay the market
to that typical client absolutely.

[00:25:42]
To spend my time there,
instead of chasing people like, hey,

[00:25:46]
I need to make
whatever demographic I’m after.

[00:25:50]
However you want to split
that demographic up.

[00:25:52]
Right.
These people are only 4ft tall.

[00:25:54]
I want to go through people 6ft tall.

[00:25:57]
It’s so true.
Yeah.

[00:25:59]
It was interesting how
upset she got at that.

[00:26:02]
I don’t think you’re looking
at this the right way.

[00:26:05]
Am I looking at it the wrong way?

[00:26:07]
It sucked out.
Yeah.

[00:26:08]
It’s just one of the most, like right.

[00:26:10]
I don’t mean to be excluding anyone.

[00:26:12]
I just know that I think
it’s just misunderstood.

[00:26:14]
Yeah.
I can’t afford to market to everyone.

[00:26:17]
No.

[00:26:17]
Unless you’re Coca Cola or Bunweiser,
you probably can’t be there.

[00:26:20]
No.
Not everybody wants service, either.

[00:26:24]
So when I target marketed,
I looked at where does the service lie?

[00:26:30]
So I compared it to music therapy and art
therapy, complementary therapy,

[00:26:34]
aromatherapy,
and then working with those individuals.

[00:26:39]
And obviously you’re going to see
the largest changes right.

[00:26:44]
With people who have
the biggest disability.

[00:26:47]
Oh, it’s very needle more, I should say.

[00:26:52]
Yeah, absolutely.

[00:26:53]
All right, so let me ask you
about the clients that you have.

[00:26:56]
Do they refer other clients to you?
Yes.

[00:26:59]
Okay.

[00:27:01]
That has also been my so initially,

[00:27:03]
I thought by pairing up with other
therapists and other providers

[00:27:08]
in the field so even my doctor
but I will tell you it’s probably me,

[00:27:15]
I think I might have come across as
trying to take their clients from them.

[00:27:19]
So that turned out not
to be a really good avenue.

[00:27:24]
So even though I thought by saying, oh,
it would be kind of fun, like,

[00:27:29]
to help enhance your practice,
maybe you could say, like, oh, you know,

[00:27:34]
if they work on a particular so,
like physical therapy, for instance,

[00:27:38]
they work specifically with muscle
movement and fine motor skills.

[00:27:42]
Yeah.

[00:27:43]
And so perhaps they could send clients
to me, or I could bring a dog in.

[00:27:49]
I could contract working with them as
maybe more of a motivation for that person

[00:27:53]
to move, which is one thing why dogs work
so much, even just the motivation,

[00:27:58]
having the person calm, but my knowledge
of that so I take a physiologic approach.

[00:28:05]
So working with the breathing parts

[00:28:08]
and the actual feelings parts,
because let’s be honest,

[00:28:11]
when you have anxiety, it’s not just
a mind thing, it’s a body response.

[00:28:16]
Right.
So I was hoping to pair with other people.

[00:28:19]
So compliment.
Compliment.

[00:28:21]
And they were taken as like, hey, exactly.

[00:28:24]
It was really ugly.

[00:28:26]
So I was like, okay, we’re just going
to it’s just so funny how you’re exactly.

[00:28:31]
How your path just but again,

[00:28:34]
going back to what you said,
just get out there and try it.

[00:28:38]
The worst that’s going to happen
is they’re going to say no.

[00:28:40]
And so I’ve had a lot of nos.

[00:28:42]
We all have.

[00:28:44]
It’s all good, but it’s the yeses, right,

[00:28:47]
that you’re just like, oh,
this is why I’m still here.

[00:28:50]
Keep moving forward.

[00:28:52]
And if you don’t ask,
you’re guaranteed to know.

[00:28:55]
Absolutely.

[00:28:55]
So you might as well ask to see
if there’s a possibility for it.

[00:28:59]
Yes.
Right.

[00:29:00]
And it’s so interesting because through

[00:29:02]
your connection with the doggy
daycare lucky dog, lucky dog.

[00:29:08]
That really opened me up to, okay,

[00:29:11]
so maybe I’m not looking exactly
at people with disabilities.

[00:29:16]
Maybe do people already have a dog that’s

[00:29:18]
kind of helping them with that need,
that extra push?

[00:29:21]
That was my whole avenue,
and that’s how I got into dog training,

[00:29:24]
because now I’m working
with other people’s dogs.

[00:29:27]
I have a lot of families that come to me.

[00:29:29]
My doctor told me to get out and walk.

[00:29:30]
My doctor told me to get a dog.

[00:29:32]
So now they have a dog and they’re like,
this dog’s driving me crazy.

[00:29:36]
And now my anxiety is
really out of the worst.

[00:29:39]
Right, exactly.

[00:29:42]
And these are the people that

[00:29:44]
some dog trainers are like, hey, you
can’t be in that if you’ve got anxiety.

[00:29:49]
And these people won’t
show up to group classes.

[00:29:50]
So that’s where I can come in and help

[00:29:53]
them because I understand
the process of anxiety.

[00:29:56]
All right, so that was
a whole nother pivot.

[00:30:01]
Sure.

[00:30:02]
You’re essentially training the trainer,
the trainer being the dog.

[00:30:06]
Yeah.
All right.

[00:30:08]
And that’s what all the equipment
are on here is for.

[00:30:10]
Right.

[00:30:11]
Because we do everything off leash
outside, inside the leash, I feel like,

[00:30:17]
is the cause of a lot of dogs
being reactive or being depressed.

[00:30:23]
When you see so many dogs working,
when you have to have a dog on a leash,

[00:30:27]
obviously going to a hospital,
you don’t want to walk in with IV pool

[00:30:30]
and they get bowed over because
they’re happy to see you.

[00:30:34]
That was part of my vision for the space,
was I wanted freedom.

[00:30:40]
obsoletion people can go to what do.

[00:30:45]
Some
all right, so most of what you’re doing

[00:30:49]
for training, is it more sit, stay
type stuff or does it go beyond that?

[00:30:54]
It goes beyond that.

[00:30:55]
So, for instance,

[00:30:58]
it’s funny, I have a lot of couple
decrements,

[00:31:03]
well, one in particular,
and I’m just going to change the age

[00:31:07]
and all that so nobody feels but a super
young couple had already had a dog

[00:31:13]
that was older and got a puppy,
and so it was so interesting.

[00:31:17]
So we did private lessons.

[00:31:18]
So my therapeutic dog training kind of was

[00:31:23]
not only just working with the two dogs
to get along in a household, right?

[00:31:26]
Because that’s a big thing
that happened over the pandemic.

[00:31:29]
People got more dogs or added a cat.

[00:31:33]
And it was so interesting because when

[00:31:35]
they first showed up, they were,
you’re doing it wrong.

[00:31:37]
No, you’re doing it wrong, arguing.

[00:31:39]
And I’m like, oh, okay.

[00:31:41]
So as we did some exercises together,
we switched things around.

[00:31:46]
By the end of our time together,

[00:31:48]
and I think it was six weeks,
the wife showed up, like,

[00:31:54]
dressed nicer and they were very like,
oh, you did a good job.

[00:31:58]
And then they asked me, do you do couples?

[00:32:01]
Hopefully that’s part of it, though.

[00:32:08]
It’s just getting the dogs that you bring

[00:32:10]
people together, but also knowing how do
you communicate with these people and.

[00:32:17]
Their dogs, that’s going to be tough.

[00:32:19]
It was because in the beginning,

[00:32:21]
it was a lot of you’re doing it
wrong and the dog stressed out.

[00:32:24]
Now we have a dog in the corner who won’t

[00:32:26]
come out to play because the two are
not agreeing, so.

[00:32:31]
You’Re doing it wrong.
This was husband.

[00:32:33]
The wife and husband.

[00:32:34]
Yeah, both.

[00:32:36]
But by the end and you’re just.

[00:32:38]
Hanging out like, whoa,
let’s start some exercise right away.

[00:32:43]
Let’s go.
Wow.

[00:32:45]
Yeah.

[00:32:46]
So the therapeutic part is working
with them and the dog, right.

[00:32:52]
So that they have a dog that
is comfortable in the home with this older

[00:32:57]
dog and then also helping them to see
that working together, being together.

[00:33:03]
I mean, it’s quite natural.
I know.

[00:33:06]
Yeah, that’s cool.

[00:33:07]
That’d be a good feeling
once you got that.

[00:33:09]
It is.
But I didn’t write my first thought.

[00:33:13]
I do everything therapeutic,

[00:33:14]
meaning that it’s very like
MINDBODY spirits we look at.

[00:33:19]
I mean, I guess as a nurse,
there’s something called all nurses,

[00:33:25]
most medical people usually will now
definitely utilize more.

[00:33:31]
Our approach is more traumainformed.

[00:33:33]
And this can be like even people education
teachers looking at maybe a child who’s

[00:33:39]
acting out and not saying,
what’s wrong with you?

[00:33:42]
What happened to you?

[00:33:44]
So that’s where I approach a lot

[00:33:46]
of and that’s, I guess,
where my nursing background comes in is,

[00:33:49]
okay, so maybe trauma is different to
everybody’s had some events in their life

[00:33:56]
where they’ve just shut down or
somebody told them something.

[00:34:01]
They’ll never amount to anything or

[00:34:02]
whatever, and you try
to work through that.

[00:34:05]
And so when I’m working with people,
I take that approach as well.

[00:34:10]
Like, okay, they’re not acting out towards
their dog because it’s like what happened

[00:34:14]
to them that they’re requesting
and the dog sometimes will reap.

[00:34:18]
That’s why sometimes you get naughty dogs.

[00:34:20]
Or people said, oh,
my dogs have ADHD and I do too.

[00:34:23]
And I’m like, yeah, you’re both kind
of reflecting behaviors, all right?

[00:34:29]
And that we unfold through that.

[00:34:31]
And I do it through
movements and activity.

[00:34:34]
Some people do talk therapy and that’s

[00:34:36]
more of the psychiatrist, psychologists,
counselors, but I’m movement, all right?

[00:34:43]
So when someone comes in and they have
an issue, do you ever work with them

[00:34:48]
a little bit and find out actually your
issue is this because it sounds like

[00:34:52]
people are coming to you with what
they believe is a problem?

[00:34:55]
Absolutely, yeah, they come
to me with a dog with an issue.

[00:34:58]
Right.

[00:34:58]
And that’s where the dog training,
getting my certification really helped

[00:35:02]
because then I can
understand dog behavior.

[00:35:04]
Is that a behavior because of their breed?

[00:35:07]
Is that a behavior because of their
environment or what have you?

[00:35:10]
And how do we train
that work with that coach?

[00:35:15]
I had a woman that came in.

[00:35:18]
I see a lot of women, a lot of women,
veterans actually, that come in.

[00:35:24]
Yeah, one had MST,
which is military sexual trauma.

[00:35:30]
Right.

[00:35:33]
So anyway, no details, but we all
know what that is or it could entail.

[00:35:39]
And she adopted a dog and interesting,

[00:35:42]
they both reflected a lot of her trying
to get rid of the trauma that happened.

[00:35:48]
So hyper vigilant, looking
around corners, so did the dog.

[00:35:53]
But when she first came to me,
it was the dog had the problem,

[00:35:56]
but what the dog was reflecting was her
hyper vigilance as well because she always

[00:36:02]
looking behind her shoulders
of somebody coming or what have you.

[00:36:04]
So once we worked with the dog to get used

[00:36:07]
to how do we react if we
are scared or fearful?

[00:36:13]
I also worked with her to know
that the dog will sense your fear.

[00:36:16]
So we kind of had to work both ways.

[00:36:18]
Oh, that’s cool.

[00:36:19]
Yeah, clever.

[00:36:23]
I guess in this situation,
it’s got to be challenging, but I imagine

[00:36:27]
whatever problem they’re coming
to you with, absolutely.

[00:36:30]
You have to dig a little bit deeper than

[00:36:31]
just the initial layer
that they’re giving you.

[00:36:34]
Right.
And I think sometimes and this is no

[00:36:39]
doctrines are great people,
but I think for me,

[00:36:43]
working with people who have maybe
a history or trauma because all these

[00:36:48]
people won’t show up to dog class
because they’re just too afraid.

[00:36:50]
But that’s good for them as well,
keep them head in.

[00:36:55]
But I suppose that’s a different
dynamic or goal.

[00:36:59]
Absolutely.
Right.

[00:37:00]
What you would take a dog
to typical training class for.

[00:37:03]
Exactly.

[00:37:04]
Because maybe you want to do dog
sports or you want to go at.

[00:37:08]
This ramp, sit, play dead, whatever.
Right.

[00:37:11]
Got you.
So different reasons for doing that.

[00:37:13]
Yeah.
So you started your business.

[00:37:15]
It’s been going for a little while.
Yeah.

[00:37:17]
What have been some of the challenges that
you did not anticipate that you ran into?

[00:37:27]
Challenges.
Challenge one.

[00:37:30]
Right.
Challenges that I didn’t anticipate.

[00:37:35]
Probably thinking that everybody
would know that they need my service.

[00:37:41]
I’m guilty of that.

[00:37:43]
With a call answering service.
Definitely.

[00:37:46]
That was one of those,
I’m going to hang my shingle.

[00:37:50]
Someone’s going to ring off the hook.
Yeah.

[00:37:52]
People are going to think, oh,

[00:37:53]
my goodness gracious, this is
the best thing since sliced bread.

[00:37:56]
Just throw money at me.

[00:37:58]
Business will grow
to Amazon Tech in two weeks.

[00:38:02]
Whatever.

[00:38:02]
I know I saw myself
on the stage talking about it.

[00:38:05]
Yeah.
Let me inspire others.

[00:38:08]
Right.

[00:38:09]
Like, oh my gosh, we’re going
to save the world and all the dogs.

[00:38:12]
Yeah.
Then you just look at the phone.

[00:38:14]
Like, oh, it was hard.

[00:38:16]
It was hard.

[00:38:17]
It’s hard when you have your family who’s
like, who understands what you’re doing.

[00:38:21]
But there are sometimes, like,

[00:38:23]
my daughter would look at me like,
mom, I don’t know what you do.

[00:38:28]
And I thought, well,
I took that as feedback.

[00:38:32]
It was hurtful, but I thought, you know,

[00:38:34]
what if she can’t
understand what her yeah.

[00:38:37]
The person lives with you doesn’t know.

[00:38:38]
And she knows I live and breathe it.
I researched.

[00:38:41]
I mean, I did my Capstone project on it.

[00:38:44]
My Masters was all animal psychotherapy.

[00:38:47]
And that was probably my that was.

[00:38:50]
A big scratch in your head, like, whoa.

[00:38:54]
Because my phones were
silent for quite a while.

[00:38:56]
I mean, I maybe had one or two,
like the first year.

[00:39:01]
And it wasn’t until I started
well, the pandemic all right.

[00:39:07]
The pandemic’s been good.

[00:39:09]
Yeah.

[00:39:10]
Fortunately.

[00:39:12]
I mean, there’s nothing wrong
with business doing well.

[00:39:14]
Right.
Our business has done well.

[00:39:16]
Pandemic.

[00:39:16]
There’s lots of businesses
that have done well.

[00:39:18]
Pandemic.

[00:39:18]
There are plenty of businesses,
arguably too many that didn’t do so hot.

[00:39:23]
Right.

[00:39:24]
I’m super lucky or glad I didn’t
have a restaurant or bar.

[00:39:29]
They had a rough time.

[00:39:31]
Bad couple of years.
Right.

[00:39:33]
So it was just right place, right.

[00:39:34]
Time for the business.

[00:39:36]
And it was a service that I provided
that turned out to be needed, I think,

[00:39:41]
with everybody knowing that with the
pandemic, dogs got adapted like crazy.

[00:39:46]
And I guess the best thing that happened

[00:39:49]
for dogs is that people
realize that dogs are helpful.

[00:39:52]
Whether you have them
in a class or a therapy or not.

[00:39:55]
Having a dog living with you,
it does extend your life.

[00:39:59]
I mean, not everybody can afford a dog.

[00:40:00]
And that’s why I have dogs for people

[00:40:03]
to work with,
but I think that was honestly

[00:40:07]
such a huge trigger that people
saw dogs in a different light.

[00:40:11]
Yeah.

[00:40:13]
They’ve gotten through some tough times,

[00:40:15]
and a lot of people we
couldn’t see all right.

[00:40:18]
Yeah, we can.

[00:40:19]
I mean, we couldn’t see older
people or they’re very young.

[00:40:23]
We had friends.

[00:40:24]
We hadn’t seen their baby for nine months.
Ten months.

[00:40:28]
Yeah.
They basically stayed in there.

[00:40:30]
And I don’t blame them.
Right.

[00:40:32]
There’s a lot of unknowns.
Yeah.

[00:40:34]
It was an interesting time.

[00:40:37]
And I have to say,

[00:40:38]
what also helped was that I had my own
space and that we built this specifically

[00:40:44]
to be indoor outdoor,
and because a lot of public health was

[00:40:47]
like, well, if you can be outdoors,
your time can be a little bit generous.

[00:40:52]
So, I mean, we followed all the protocols.

[00:40:54]
You could adapt.
Absolutely.

[00:40:56]
That was in somebody else’s space.
Yeah.

[00:40:59]
Because they closed down buildings.
All right.

[00:41:02]
Yeah.
So that’s very cool.

[00:41:03]
Yeah.

[00:41:04]
And you’d love to say that it was like,
oh, I knew this was going to happen.

[00:41:09]
I thought it was going
to happen like the year before.

[00:41:13]
Yeah.
Interesting.

[00:41:15]
So you’re happy with the business?
Oh, yeah.

[00:41:18]
All right.

[00:41:19]
So how do you see it growing
in the next let’s call it three years.

[00:41:23]
Who knows what’s going to go
beyond three years, I’m afraid.

[00:41:27]
What’s going to happen in six months?

[00:41:30]
Gosh,
I’d love to see this model of practice

[00:41:35]
and practice other places,
especially from a nursing I’d really love

[00:41:39]
to grow it from a nursing provider
perspective because I am an independent

[00:41:44]
nursing practice, I guess
you could say providers.

[00:41:46]
Okay.
All right.

[00:41:48]
I’d love to see that.

[00:41:49]
Do you anticipate employees?
I do.

[00:41:51]
I would love to see that as well.
All right.

[00:41:54]
Because there are times where I simply

[00:41:57]
just can’t accommodate, because Josie,
I can’t work her 8 hours in a day.

[00:42:02]
It’s hard work.
Oh, I need to think about that.

[00:42:04]
Dog is essentially an employee.
Absolutely.

[00:42:07]
That was another huge I guess oh,
my gosh, I didn’t even think of that.

[00:42:12]
So I have a nice network of people that
have registered therapy dogs so that I

[00:42:18]
know that they’ve been tested
and that I can pull from if I need.

[00:42:22]
Nice.
That is cool.

[00:42:24]
How can people find you?
Facebook

[00:42:27]
I have a website,
www.opheel.com. Opheel.com. Yeah.

[00:42:32]
Operation Heel.

[00:42:33]
Okay.

[00:42:36]
Awesome.

[00:42:38]
And phone number?

[00:42:40]
Myself. 608-239-5671.
Nice.

[00:42:44]
And then can you describe the location,
I guess where we are, we’re in the middle of nowhere.

[00:42:50]
Well, that’s the point.

[00:42:51]
Well, it’s beautiful out here.
Yeah.

[00:42:54]
It’s not that far away from the city,

[00:42:55]
but there’s so many trees,
and it’s just open.

[00:42:58]
Right.
And I forgot to mention that we’ve got

[00:43:03]
some horses on the property, so I’m also
expanding into the horse therapy world.

[00:43:07]
Oh, wow.
So not only dog, but horses.

[00:43:09]
Very cool.
Yeah.

[00:43:11]
We just adopted a 26 year old brood mare.

[00:43:14]
She’s 26.
26.

[00:43:16]
How long do horses live 35.

[00:43:20]
If we’re lucky, but yes.

[00:43:22]
No part of it was to be a partner to our
young three year old, but she’s amazing.

[00:43:31]
She’s had a tough life.

[00:43:33]
She came from a kill lot.

[00:43:35]
They basically bred her till they couldn’t

[00:43:38]
get another full off of her,
which happens with Purebred.

[00:43:42]
Okay.

[00:43:43]
I’m new to the horse world as far as that,
but my daughter is like the horse trigger.

[00:43:46]
Oh, interesting.

[00:43:48]
So we’re located in Marshall.
All right.

[00:43:51]
About seven minutes
from 94 on the highway.

[00:43:55]
All right.
From 94 and N.

[00:43:57]
Yeah.
All right, so super simple.

[00:44:01]
Do you bring in people from Milwaukee?

[00:44:03]
No, I haven’t.
Okay.

[00:44:05]
But I do have a lot of people that want me

[00:44:07]
to come visit them and show them
how to incorporate a therapy dog.

[00:44:10]
So I’m going to head to Milwaukee

[00:44:13]
to the LGBTQ has an office that they
want me to come in and do.

[00:44:18]
It very cool.
Nice.

[00:44:21]
Yeah.
Cindy, you got a cool thing going on here.

[00:44:24]
Thanks to you, James.

[00:44:26]
I give you some guidance.

[00:44:28]
I didn’t know your coaching was spot on,

[00:44:31]
everything you said,
and I didn’t believe you at first.

[00:44:33]
I didn’t want to believe it.
I didn’t.

[00:44:35]
Well, that’s coming

[00:44:37]
because you have this idea that you love,
and I didn’t want it not to work.

[00:44:43]
Yeah.
I’ve probably destroyed some dreams.

[00:44:45]
Not intentionally, just like, no, I don’t.

[00:44:47]
Want you to do anything.

[00:44:48]
No, you just redirected them.

[00:44:51]
You never destroyed you’re just,
like, think about this aspect.

[00:44:55]
Right.

[00:44:57]
I’m worried that someone’s going to go

[00:45:01]
bankrupt or just go follow their dream
without a plan and then just spend without

[00:45:07]
any plan and just spend
themselves into oblivion.

[00:45:11]
No.
And then they’re in a deeper hole trying

[00:45:15]
still the same problem that they had
when they first started digging.

[00:45:17]
Right.

[00:45:20]
You can hate me, but in a couple
of years, you’ll be happy.

[00:45:24]
Absolutely.

[00:45:25]
Honestly.

[00:45:27]
And I can’t thank you enough.

[00:45:29]
And I’m not just saying
that because I’m here to talk.

[00:45:30]
Yeah, right.

[00:45:32]
It’s just very cool.

[00:45:33]
We have a little actual history together.

[00:45:37]
It’s been a while, but yeah, I guess so.

[00:45:40]
People understand.

[00:45:41]
He was in my business planning class,
was it four years ago, five years.

[00:45:45]
Ago, all of that.
Yeah.

[00:45:47]
Back when you could
have in person classes.

[00:45:49]
That was awesome.

[00:45:50]
Yeah, it was good group.

[00:45:52]
It was a fun group.

[00:45:53]
So, at any rate,

[00:45:55]
do you have anything that you’d like
to share with people as far as advice,

[00:45:59]
things that you’ve learned or things
he’s like, you can be the coach?

[00:46:05]
Things I learned, which, again,
if I would have listened to James out

[00:46:09]
the door, is definitely, like,
low cost options to advertise.

[00:46:15]
I think one of his definitely logo, but
maybe don’t spend too much time on that.

[00:46:19]
Just get something out
there that reflects you.

[00:46:22]
I know this branding is cute.

[00:46:23]
That’s like a whole other topic.
Right.

[00:46:25]
But I think getting a nice
sweatshirt or hat is great advertising.

[00:46:33]
People always ask, yeah,
and it can be simple.

[00:46:36]
Those are like low cost
things, I feel like.

[00:46:39]
And referrals,
at least in the service world,

[00:46:43]
are huge because people want to,
especially now, I think too, is trust.

[00:46:51]
Most of the business, I guess,

[00:46:53]
is especially working with families
and children because they’re precious.

[00:46:59]
Well, that’s probably the biggest

[00:47:02]
hurdle I mentioned right there’s,
the marketing aspect.

[00:47:04]
People know you exist, right?

[00:47:06]
But there’s also for what you’re doing.

[00:47:08]
Can I trust you with my time?
Right?

[00:47:11]
And then you’re marketing to parents
who have an emotional attachment to not

[00:47:16]
only the child, but how their
child’s going to get treated.

[00:47:19]
Fair?
Yeah, fair.

[00:47:20]
I love it.

[00:47:21]
Cindy, you’ve got a cool
thing going on here.

[00:47:22]
Well, thank you.
I love it.

[00:47:24]
This has been Authentic
Business Adventures.

[00:47:26]
It’s a business program that brings you

[00:47:27]
the struggles, stories, and triumphant successes of business owners across land.

[00:47:32]
We’re underwritten locally
by the Bank of Sun Prairie.

[00:47:35]
If you’re listening or watching this
on the web, you could do us a huge favor.

[00:47:38]
Smash that subscribe button,
give it a big old thumbs up, comment,

[00:47:42]
and if you have any questions, by all
means, throw them out there as well.

[00:47:46]
My name is James Kademan,

[00:47:47]
and Authentic Business Adventures is
brought to you by Calls on Call offering

[00:47:50]
call answering services for service
businesses across the country.

[00:47:55]
I forgot what we did for a moment.

[00:47:57]
As well as Draw in Customers Business

[00:48:00]
Coaching offering business coaching services
for entrepreneurs looking for growth.

[00:48:04]
And I’m having a rough time talking.

[00:48:06]
As well as the the Bold Business Book. A book

[00:48:09]
for the entrepreneur in all of us
available wherever fine books are sold.

[00:48:12]
We’d like to thank you,
our wonderful listeners, as well as,

[00:48:14]
I guess, Cindy Brosig,
the owner of Operation Heel.

[00:48:19]
Cindy, can you tell us
that website one more time?

[00:48:20]
Sure, it’s www.opheel.com.

[00:48:26]
Opheel.com. Got it.

[00:48:29]
Past episodes can be fun
morning, noon, and night.

[00:48:31]
The podcast link found at

[00:48:32]
drawincustomer.com.
Thank you for listening.

[00:48:35]
We’ll see you next week.
I want you to stay awesome.

[00:48:37]
And if you do nothing else,
enjoy your business.