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Susan A Marshall – The Backbone Institute
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[00:00:14]
Coming to you remotely, because that’s
how we roll in this Covid world.
[00:00:18]
But I’m excited because we
have Susan Marshall today.
[00:00:21]
Susan is the founder
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of the Backbone Institute,
as well as the author of four books.
[00:00:26]
So if anything makes you feel lazy,
that should do it.
[00:00:29]
But I’m excited to hear from Susan.
[00:00:31]
So, Susan, let’s start with what
is the Backbone Institute.
[00:00:35]
James, thanks for having me.
[00:00:37]
Backbone Institute as a private practice
essentially dedicated to the three
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elements of backbone, which are
competence, confidence and risk taking.
[00:00:46]
And if you think about three elements,
they really form a learning
[00:00:51]
learning pattern or a learning system,
if you will, if we can set a goal,
[00:00:55]
if we don’t set a goal,
we got no where to go.
[00:00:57]
Right.
[00:00:57]
But once you set a goal that kind of gives
you your focus,
[00:01:00]
then you back up from that and say,
what do I need to get better at in order
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to elevate my confidence
to go achieve that?
[00:01:07]
So personal professional entrepreneurs are
[00:01:09]
fabulous, as you know yourself,
for having all kinds of energy
[00:01:13]
that sometimes isn’t quite channeled
toward toward a particular goal.
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So competence, confidence, risk taking.
[00:01:20]
When I started speaking on this,
[00:01:23]
twenty five years or so ago,
I used to ask the audience of those three
[00:01:26]
elements: competence,
confidence and risk taking.
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Which one do you think is most missing?
Hmm.
[00:01:34]
People would say very,
very early on it was competence.
[00:01:39]
A lot of people are out there doing stuff.
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They don’t know what they’re doing.
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Then it became risk taking.
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In fact, I was at an IT conference years
ago and said competence, confidence, risk taking.
[00:01:48]
Guy pulled me aside at the break
and he goes, You can’t say that word.
[00:01:52]
Can’t say what word.
Which word?
[00:01:54]
He said, risk.
[00:01:56]
What? Exactly.
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I said, why not?
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He said it scares people.
Kind of the point, right?
[00:02:03]
Kind of the point.
Exactly right.
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At an IT conference anyway.
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And more recently, James,
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it’s been confidence.
I think are very confused about what
[00:02:13]
business success is means,
what leadership is all about.
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So I get a lot of questions on that.
[00:02:21]
And while people kind of stand up strong
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and say all these wonderful things,
you can tell just by looking at some
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people that the confidence
is really not there.
[00:02:30]
Common, extremely common to a fault.
Yeah.
[00:02:33]
Yeah.
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And so that’s kind of given me
a new wrinkle to think about.
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How do we help people shut out the noise,
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focus on what they are
gifted with. Strengths
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finders is one of my favorite tools
and really work to develop that and worry
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less about what people sometimes tell
than they should or could be doing.
[00:02:51]
Sure.
It’s interesting you say that I just had
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a conversation with one of my employees,
she’s training a new employee.
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And I’m like,
this just doesn’t seem confident.
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And if the new employee
comes and they don’t see the confidence
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in the training and the curriculum and all
that kind of stuff,
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they’re going to be scared away
because they’re going to be an idiot.
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I just
[00:03:15]
yeah.
You don’t seem intelligent.
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You seem like you don’t
know what’s going on.
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You’re flying by the seat of your pants.
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And I think a lot of people got
away with that for a long time.
[00:03:22]
But I don’t know,
OK, fast talk fast and don’t you know,
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just speed through and leave them
in the way in your way going.
[00:03:29]
Right.
What was that?
[00:03:31]
What just happened?
All right.
[00:03:33]
We got some politicians
that are good at that.
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Oh, please don’t get me started then.
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We don’t have to go down that road.
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But it’s interesting how you could argue
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if you have more confidence than
competence, you could be more successful
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than someone that has
the flip side of that.
[00:03:50]
Right.
Well, and I think that’s a real trap
[00:03:53]
and actually have spent a lot of time
working with people, because if you if you
[00:03:57]
have more confidence than competence,
is it confidence or is it braggadocio?
[00:04:02]
Are you trying to look
like something you are not
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really at base level know?
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What you’re doing
is a frightening prospect.
[00:04:11]
But I think a lot of people
I would argue that there’s a lot of people
[00:04:14]
in sales positions that have exactly that,
right? To be in sales at all successful
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you have to have confidence,
I can tell you, from shopping for a car,
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the sales people have no
idea what they’re selling.
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No clue.
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Color, maybe.
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Wow, well, I haven’t shopped for car
in a while, but given that I’m not sure
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I’m going to, well a lot of people
are shopping online. Just.
[00:04:36]
Well, absolutely.
Yeah.
[00:04:38]
I would say it’s not
exclusive to car shopping.
[00:04:40]
It’s just anything.
I mean, you go into a
[00:04:43]
retail store to buy a TV and you’re like,
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hey, does this TV do whatever
compared to this TV?
[00:04:49]
And they start reading the box
like I can read.
[00:04:53]
I don’t even know what’s interesting about
[00:04:55]
that, though, as you think about how we’ve
morphed from going to to talk with someone
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who supposedly knows a product to looking
online and going through all the specs
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and having some idea and reading
the blogs and all that kind of thing.
[00:05:06]
So the shopping experience
I think is different.
[00:05:09]
It’s evolving, that’s for sure.
Yeah.
[00:05:12]
And I know you think about A.I. and you
[00:05:14]
think about Elon Musk,
who’s going to a sell with chips.
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No worries.
Still have confidence built in there.
[00:05:20]
So it’s a different world.
[00:05:22]
And I think that’s partly why I’m seeing
a lot of people today a little scrambled.
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What should I write to?
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What should I not what do
I need to get good at?
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What do I not need not to worry about?
[00:05:36]
And all of that has
an impact on confidence.
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I know from my experience and I guess your
Midwest, just like I am,
[00:05:44]
a lot of people here are terribly
slow at making decisions.
[00:05:49]
So I guess it leads to at least me viewing
them as lack of lacking confidence.
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I don’t know if that’s
the case or not or if they’re.
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I don’t know why.
I don’t know.
[00:05:58]
You say that because I’ve done a lot
[00:06:00]
of work with East Coast people
whom I absolutely love.
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New Yorkers are my all
time favorite of it.
[00:06:04]
And New Jersey, you don’t have to guess.
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They’re going to tell you
like it is if it hurts.
[00:06:09]
So sad.
Too bad.
[00:06:10]
But I think here.
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Yes, in the Midwest,
we suffer from Midwest.
[00:06:14]
Nice.
We don’t want to hurt.
[00:06:16]
Nice.
I don’t wanna hurt your feelings.
[00:06:18]
Yeah.
So we’ll edit.
[00:06:19]
But we’re going to say and we’ll I mean
all of that people can sense
[00:06:24]
the hesitation and they can sense that
the word authentic comes from this.
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You’re not being real with me
and our brains are constantly trying
[00:06:33]
to sort out what’s going to hurt, what’s
not, what’s going to help, what’s not.
[00:06:36]
And then we get all tangled up and that’s
where confidence goes right down here.
[00:06:42]
Yes, interesting, just
[00:06:44]
I guess you’re talking about the word
confidence, manosphere,
[00:06:47]
a challenge, and some of the potential
employees that I was looking at.
[00:06:50]
Yeah.
[00:06:51]
Are considering hiring where
their resume seems cool.
[00:06:54]
But when you talk to them.
[00:06:56]
They couldn’t form
a sentence or just scared.
[00:07:00]
Yes, and my main business,
[00:07:02]
the call answering service, we talk
to people, so we need the confidence.
[00:07:08]
It’s a must have, I would argue.
[00:07:10]
It’s a must have for any business.
[00:07:11]
But imagine there’s some programmers out
[00:07:13]
there staring at the keyboard
that are doing just fine without it.
[00:07:15]
I think that’s true.
[00:07:16]
And, you know,
and then you get into the whole introvert
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versus extrovert argument
started in and therefore.
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But but confidence is not about.
[00:07:26]
Verbal or physical demonstration?
[00:07:30]
Not exclusively, no.
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No, I think that’s a that’s
a part of it, right.
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Or it could be a part of it
depending upon the situation.
[00:07:38]
Exactly correct.
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But I know some leaders that I know are
extraordinarily introverted,
[00:07:43]
but powerful when they speak,
people are like, wow, that made sense.
[00:07:49]
So it’s really knowing yourself,
[00:07:51]
knowing your role, knowing what
you’re trying to accomplish.
[00:07:55]
And that’s the competence piece that,
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at least in my mind,
has to precede confidence.
[00:08:00]
All right.
All right.
[00:08:01]
That’s fair.
I’m thinking of John F.
[00:08:03]
Kennedy when he said we’re
going to go to the moon.
[00:08:06]
Right.
Confidence in that.
[00:08:07]
But you know anything
about going to the moon.
[00:08:10]
And people are like, what way?
[00:08:13]
Even the scientists are like,
what are we doing?
[00:08:17]
We’ll see.
And that’s the risk element.
[00:08:19]
Right?
So you put it out there and you say, OK,
[00:08:22]
that’s an outrageous
thing on its face ever.
[00:08:25]
If we’re going to take that seriously as
a mission that is presented in this
[00:08:28]
country, want to do,
what do we need to get good at?
[00:08:31]
All right, you’re out to elevate our
confidence, to take the next step
[00:08:35]
in the next step, the next step before you
know it, or planting a flag on the moon.
[00:08:38]
Sure, it worked out,
[00:08:42]
but it’s all good.
[00:08:44]
So do you train people individually or do
you present them as groups or how do you
[00:08:49]
resolve this confidence
and competence issue?
[00:08:51]
Both.
And
[00:08:54]
I started out excuse me,
doing a lot of independent coaching.
[00:09:01]
Your point earlier, James,
[00:09:02]
that got really kind of frustrated
with that because people were
[00:09:05]
leaning on me to help them get better when
it’s you know, it’s not the coach’s job.
[00:09:11]
I bought a treadmill.
[00:09:13]
I didn’t lose weight.
[00:09:15]
Or you look at my dumbbells over here.
[00:09:17]
Yeah, exactly right.
Right.
[00:09:19]
And in fact, my favorite favorite story
[00:09:22]
of executive coaching was a bunch of years
ago, I walked into a guy’s office and you
[00:09:26]
could tell you the pictures of sailboats
and all of his vacation spots and just
[00:09:32]
trappings everywhere about his
success and his wealth and his power.
[00:09:36]
And so I walk into his office and I
don’t even know how you heard about me.
[00:09:39]
And I’m sitting across the table from his
[00:09:41]
desk desk from him and he
points his finger at me.
[00:09:43]
Since you know what?
[00:09:45]
You know how I’m going
to know you’re any good.
[00:09:48]
He said, if you can fix me.
[00:09:51]
Oh, and I chuckled a little bit.
And I said, you know what?
[00:09:55]
Be careful to speak.
[00:09:57]
Obviously has power.
[00:09:58]
I said, no, that’s the exact
backwards of this equation.
[00:10:02]
My job is to help you
do what you want to do.
[00:10:05]
I don’t fix anybody.
Right.
[00:10:07]
And that was the end of the conversation.
[00:10:09]
And I never did work with them.
Really?
[00:10:12]
Really.
Wow.
[00:10:14]
That’s a good.
[00:10:16]
The illusion of control.
[00:10:20]
Interesting, huh?
[00:10:23]
So, you know, from your own business
[00:10:24]
coaching, sometimes there’s a fine
line between coaching and therapy.
[00:10:28]
Right.
[00:10:29]
A lot of people, especially in the last
five years, I’m going to say,
[00:10:33]
are coming in for therapeutic work
and just kind of straight up coaching.
[00:10:40]
So I’m very, very careful to say upfront,
[00:10:42]
look, some of these things that we’ll be
talking about, they’re very personal.
[00:10:45]
This is all confidential.
[00:10:47]
However, if there is a need you have
that exceeds business coaching.
[00:10:52]
I’m happy to refer you.
Mm hmm.
[00:10:54]
Mm hmm.
Probably twenty five to thirty percent
[00:10:57]
of the people that I begin
working with, I refer.
[00:11:01]
Wow, that’s a big percentage,
big number right out of the question.
[00:11:07]
I understand what you’re saying.
That makes sense.
[00:11:09]
Well, I think because we now live
in a much more open kind of environment
[00:11:13]
where you open your kimono and you’re
authentic and you just kind of
[00:11:18]
burp it all out.
[00:11:19]
That’s that’s fair.
[00:11:22]
And we’re encouraged to do that.
[00:11:24]
And then without stepping back and saying,
you know what context matters,
[00:11:28]
what am I going to share in this context
that is going to have ramifications
[00:11:32]
for the organization
and leadership team and certainly
[00:11:35]
for anybody who’s listening
to me with a competitive ear.
[00:11:40]
That’s fair.
[00:11:42]
I guess my experience has been there have
been some clients that I’ve had to stop
[00:11:47]
working with simply because they were
enjoying being broken
[00:11:52]
or enjoying having their problem like
that was their
[00:11:55]
their mindset was I’m alive because I have
problems, which to a point is realistic.
[00:11:59]
But they weren’t interested in resolving
those problems to get higher quality
[00:12:04]
of problem and then they’re just
complacent in their pain.
[00:12:09]
Yes.
In fact, I was working
[00:12:11]
in the New York City Leadership Academy
many moons ago,
[00:12:13]
and Bob Knowling was at the time,
the CEO of the Academy Academy was formed
[00:12:17]
by Mike Bloomberg,
who was the mayor at the time.
[00:12:21]
Jack Welch, Noel Tichy, Caroline Kennedy
and Dick Parsons of AOL.
[00:12:25]
So a lot of really important people.
[00:12:27]
But we would get into our
[00:12:30]
planning meetings and time we were
going to welcome a new cohort.
[00:12:33]
And one of the things that Nolan used
[00:12:35]
to say is sometimes we get we
find the smartest people we know.
[00:12:39]
We put them all together in a room
[00:12:41]
and then we sit down
and we enjoy our problems.
[00:12:45]
And it’s true.
True, very true.
[00:12:48]
You know, we have these wonderful
[00:12:49]
conversations and we feel feeling ever so
smart with all of this wonderful company.
[00:12:53]
We think, what are we doing?
[00:12:56]
You could argue that almost every
board meeting that’s ever happened.
[00:13:01]
Precisely.
Yeah, that’s interesting.
[00:13:03]
That’s a cool that’s a list of who’s who.
[00:13:05]
Back in the day, it was amazing.
[00:13:07]
And talk about confidence
[00:13:09]
once I had that lens in place as I was
beginning to do the research for my work,
[00:13:14]
it’s like it is amazing how people
can appear to be confident.
[00:13:19]
But scratch the surface or
ask a challenging question.
[00:13:22]
Whoopsies.
[00:13:24]
Yeah, pretty quickly sometimes.
Sure.
[00:13:27]
Interesting.
[00:13:28]
So what got you into this
whole coaching room?
[00:13:33]
I led a turnaround in the mid 90s
of a privately held marketing
[00:13:39]
marketing division of a privately held
marketing firm, Direct Marketing,
[00:13:43]
and the other side of the business was
planning to purchase display type stuff.
[00:13:48]
And one of the things that when I stepped
[00:13:50]
into the role, I had just
finished work on an MBA degree.
[00:13:54]
So course everybody knows once you have
an MBA, you’re really, really smart.
[00:13:58]
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
[00:13:59]
I get the tap on the rose petals go.
I know.
[00:14:04]
I get the tap on the shoulder.
[00:14:05]
Hey.
[00:14:07]
Do you want to step into this role?
[00:14:09]
It wasn’t that simple or
that clean, it never is.
[00:14:11]
But the woman who had been brought
in after the figurehead of the division
[00:14:15]
had died at an early age
came from the East Coast.
[00:14:19]
My favorite people.
[00:14:19]
But she knew direct marketing
in a very different way.
[00:14:23]
She was with subscription marketing
and financial services type stuff.
[00:14:28]
Our business was largely
automotive and loyalty programs.
[00:14:33]
Think hotel programs,
I think frequent flyer stuff.
[00:14:37]
So a mismatch from the get go and really,
really uncomfortable after a year.
[00:14:43]
And she was just beside herself,
[00:14:45]
had moved her family
from the East Coast to Wisconsin.
[00:14:49]
They didn’t like being here.
[00:14:51]
They hated the weather.
[00:14:52]
That kind of stuff was not
that different from the East Coast.
[00:14:55]
Anyway, in a year she was not doing well.
[00:14:59]
I had just finished the MBA,
so I got the you want to take this over.
[00:15:03]
At the time, we were losing about two
[00:15:05]
and a half million dollars
and a 16 million dollar business.
[00:15:08]
So it was bad.
[00:15:09]
It was.
[00:15:11]
And so I went through with
had maybe forty people in the division.
[00:15:16]
My first question to everybody in the
division was what were you hired to do?
[00:15:21]
And given what you know about this
[00:15:22]
business and our clients,
what should you be doing?
[00:15:26]
Based on that input and that feedback,
[00:15:28]
we have called out people who shouldn’t be
there,
[00:15:32]
we kind of move things around and we
completely restructured the business
[00:15:36]
and client teams versus
functional departments.
[00:15:40]
All right.
[00:15:41]
It was unique to the
to the company itself.
[00:15:44]
It was not well received.
[00:15:46]
I will say that by my counterparts
in the other division,
[00:15:49]
I actually wrote about this in How to Grow
a Backbone, but we were successful
[00:15:53]
in turning it around,
sustained it every year.
[00:15:55]
And I said, you know what,
this is kind of cool and I wonder if I can
[00:15:58]
help other companies
do similar kinds of things.
[00:16:03]
So I went off on my own, I think probably,
[00:16:05]
I don’t know, 18 months later,
I got to get a job.
[00:16:10]
This is working the way I expected.
[00:16:12]
Went to work for Hewlett Associates, which
is a global consulting firm in Lincoln.
[00:16:19]
So they wanted to build
a leadership practice.
[00:16:22]
And of course, that had been
a lot of this research.
[00:16:25]
I had done the writing down, et cetera.
[00:16:27]
So I was there more PhDs per capita than I
[00:16:30]
had ever seen in my life in any
organization whatsoever.
[00:16:33]
I was completely intimidated
and this is not my idea.
[00:16:38]
So I think I was there
maybe nine months and
[00:16:42]
so but but really integrating all
the experiences I had and the things
[00:16:47]
that I had worked on and listen to people
say they wanted to do,
[00:16:52]
but couldn’t quite figure out how
competence, confidence, risk taking.
[00:16:58]
We don’t know what we’re talking about.
[00:16:59]
We sound really good.
[00:17:02]
When you sell something to a client
in that environment, you come back and you
[00:17:05]
sit around a conference,
you look at each other and go front row.
[00:17:10]
I think there’s a lot of that in business.
[00:17:13]
So that’s what triggered the interest.
[00:17:16]
And I just kept working with different
[00:17:17]
people and paying attention
and keeping notes, you know.
[00:17:22]
All right.
As we go,
[00:17:24]
how did you end up getting the first job
then to do a turnaround of that scale?
[00:17:29]
I doing feeling that in a 60 million
dollar company, you had to have some more
[00:17:35]
some credentials other
than I just graduated or.
[00:17:37]
Oh, absolutely.
[00:17:38]
And I had been with the company for seven
and a half years with that same company.
[00:17:42]
With that same company.
[00:17:43]
So I know the business.
I knew the clients.
[00:17:46]
I knew some of the supplier
relationships we had.
[00:17:49]
We’re really not appropriate
for the business.
[00:17:52]
Again, the woman who had
taken it over with focus on a very
[00:17:56]
different adaptation,
if you will, of direct marketing.
[00:18:00]
It really didn’t make sense for us.
[00:18:01]
People throughout the division were
[00:18:03]
confused and really
didn’t know how to adapt.
[00:18:06]
So one of the things that we did that was
a ton of fun that I highly recommend
[00:18:11]
people who are struggling now with, gosh,
the business has changed our tools.
[00:18:16]
That changed.
We walked through about a nine month
[00:18:18]
process with as many people in division
as we could gather each of our tents.
[00:18:24]
And we literally mapped process,
[00:18:26]
mapped the business
for this in order to come from if it comes
[00:18:30]
from sales and who touches
it next for how long?
[00:18:33]
What did they do?
Where does it go next?
[00:18:35]
What do they do all the way through?
[00:18:39]
Understanding the challenge to designing
[00:18:41]
the program,
to actually creating the deliverables
[00:18:44]
of the program, getting it to the client
and then processing the feedback.
[00:18:47]
So we learned a ton.
[00:18:53]
So am I really systematise everything?
[00:18:56]
Yeah, so it’s crazy to think
[00:18:58]
that a business of that scale doing that
kind of revenue didn’t have that already.
[00:19:03]
Well, because the guy who ran it
for many years was a natural sales guy.
[00:19:08]
OK, up to be around.
[00:19:09]
And he had
[00:19:11]
relationships and connections
[00:19:13]
with the Hyatt brothers
and with the Marriott family.
[00:19:16]
And so some of those big, big clients
that none of the rest of us had.
[00:19:21]
And of course, when he passed,
[00:19:24]
that top level link was severed.
[00:19:27]
There had been other relationships built,
[00:19:28]
obviously, through those clients,
but it was really far more dependent
[00:19:33]
on the organization rather than the
individual to make the company continue.
[00:19:37]
So I think that’s what got
us in trouble, frankly.
[00:19:40]
All right.
[00:19:41]
So were you how did you get
picked out of that crowd?
[00:19:44]
Because there had to be a bunch of people
[00:19:45]
that were vying for the
position of fixing this.
[00:19:47]
Were you the one that just said,
hey, this is broken?
[00:19:50]
Scurlock here you go.
[00:19:52]
Had been saying that and we had been
[00:19:54]
in the process of kind of looking at was
there a different way to structure?
[00:19:57]
It was one of several.
Yes.
[00:19:59]
To your point
[00:20:01]
that the appointment was controversial
[00:20:04]
in the sense that a woman who was
acknowledged as a tremendously
[00:20:08]
intelligent, brilliant strategist
wanted the role and didn’t get it.
[00:20:13]
So that was I could tell
stories about that.
[00:20:17]
But once that’s natural.
Right.
[00:20:19]
And then there was another guy
that the woman before me had brought
[00:20:22]
from New York who also felt like he should
have gotten the job even though he had
[00:20:26]
been with the company for, I don’t know,
10 months, maybe 10 or 11 months.
[00:20:31]
So there’s a lot of human dynamics that go
into any of that kind of thing
[00:20:35]
trying to me every bit as
much as the business itself.
[00:20:39]
Sure, it makes sense.
[00:20:41]
That’s fair.
[00:20:42]
So let’s downshift
and talk about your books.
[00:20:45]
Yes.
What you get for books, published novels.
[00:20:49]
And when was the first time
that you wrote your first book?
[00:20:52]
And just tell us what it is,
what it’s about all ages.
[00:20:55]
Well, the first published book is called
[00:20:57]
How to Grow a Backbone Ten Strategies
for Gaining Power and Influence at Work.
[00:21:02]
And it was based on this competence,
competence, risk taking
[00:21:06]
that actually was
published in Two Thousand.
[00:21:09]
So it’s 20 years old now.
[00:21:11]
Yeah, it is making somewhat
of a resurgence at this moment.
[00:21:14]
All right.
[00:21:15]
Because people are looking
at how power and influence.
[00:21:18]
Yeah.
How do I do that?
[00:21:19]
This crazy world
[00:21:23]
prior to that, I had I,
I have been writing since I was a kid.
[00:21:28]
It has literally been my way to keep
my sanity and the second of six
[00:21:32]
railroad tracks to the river and I
would just write and about anything.
[00:21:37]
So I enjoyed words.
[00:21:38]
I’ve noticed one of the women
you had on was a linguist.
[00:21:42]
Yeah.
S.I. Hayakawa was the linguist.
[00:21:45]
I absolutely revered in high
school journalism class.
[00:21:49]
Love the guy, loved words,
[00:21:51]
love the meaning of words,
Latin roots and all that kind of stuff.
[00:21:53]
So anyway, I’m kind
of a geek in that sense.
[00:21:56]
So I’ve been writing and writing.
[00:21:57]
Well, I was a single mom
also for a lot of years.
[00:22:00]
I had two daughters and our means
[00:22:02]
of communication because I was working,
traveling and going to school nights was
[00:22:07]
to write each other notes and we
put them on the kitchen table.
[00:22:11]
No, Mom, I’m in bed, but I’m studying.
[00:22:12]
Come down and kiss goodnight
or whatever, whatever.
[00:22:14]
So at first book I put together
was called Letters in the Kitchen.
[00:22:17]
Oh, interesting.
[00:22:19]
Love the parents who wonder what their
[00:22:21]
kids are thinking about when they’re
at work or their travel had all of this
[00:22:26]
evidence and I thought,
man, this is pretty cool.
[00:22:28]
Yeah, well, publishers didn’t think so.
[00:22:31]
It was sending it out and an agent called
me from New York and said,
[00:22:35]
so the only people interested in this
kind of book are the authors.
[00:22:40]
I’m like, Oh, that’s
the degree, aren’t we?
[00:22:44]
We like your writing style.
[00:22:45]
If you would consider writing a business
oriented book, we look at it.
[00:22:49]
So I sent them three titles,
[00:22:51]
How to Grow a Backbone,
The Corporate Trust, a message for CEOs.
[00:22:55]
And I forget what the third one was.
[00:22:57]
Well, they love the title,
How to Go Back On, and they said, Cool.
[00:23:00]
What’s it about?
Like, I don’t know yet.
[00:23:05]
So that was an education.
[00:23:07]
They sent me there their template
to create a book proposal and all this
[00:23:10]
kind of stuff, which was
a giant research project.
[00:23:13]
What are similar books where they’ve
been published for the publishers?
[00:23:17]
What’s the sale price like?
[00:23:19]
I hate this.
[00:23:21]
I am not a data queen by any
stretch of the imagination.
[00:23:24]
But nonetheless, I learned a ton
wrote the book.
[00:23:28]
They copied it and sent it
to eight different publishers.
[00:23:31]
NTC books in Chicago
had a publicist who also loved the title.
[00:23:37]
Cool.
So A.C. picked it up.
[00:23:40]
I got no.
[00:23:41]
Yes, I did get a I got a small.
[00:23:45]
What’s it called when
you write it in advance?
[00:23:47]
OK, OK, because working with an agent,
[00:23:50]
the agent got 15 percent
on that right off the top.
[00:23:54]
So anyway, that was that was interesting.
[00:23:57]
When the book came out,
I was getting divorced.
[00:24:01]
Oh.
[00:24:02]
So like the expert in precisely
nothing, which was too bad.
[00:24:06]
But
[00:24:07]
the second book then was called
Life or is called Life Be in It.
[00:24:13]
That one came out in 2012 because I wanted
[00:24:16]
to get back in the market as an author
to work on the Backbone Guide series.
[00:24:21]
We had titles for young professionals,
[00:24:24]
geeks, nonprofit leaders,
parents and educators.
[00:24:29]
So we put it up on the website.
[00:24:30]
I think it probably still is up
[00:24:31]
on the website and I was
starting a little survey.
[00:24:35]
Which of these titles would you be
most interested in in reading next?
[00:24:40]
And that was, as you can imagine,
scattered across all the titles.
[00:24:43]
So I had begun research on the geek book.
Mm hmm.
[00:24:46]
ING researchers, scientists, people.
[00:24:50]
The working title was Leveraging Your
Genius A Background Guide for Geeks, huh?
[00:24:55]
What I began to realize and I talked
[00:24:57]
with probably forty five or fifty
different geeks from all different
[00:25:00]
industries, and I began to realize that
their culture was not one of sharing.
[00:25:06]
Oh, sure.
Was one of being the expert.
[00:25:09]
It’s OK for them to leverage their
genius meant to dissipate their power.
[00:25:16]
I had no idea.
[00:25:17]
Oh, yeah, I can tell you from working
[00:25:19]
with I.T. people that they are
very happy to keep their power.
[00:25:23]
Well, their.
Oh, yeah.
[00:25:25]
So I have this very
altruistic idea in mind.
[00:25:27]
Right.
Well, forget that.
[00:25:29]
What?
[00:25:31]
So that went by the wayside and then
[00:25:33]
picked up the in 2014
of beauty and substance.
[00:25:39]
A backbone guide for women was published.
Mm hmm.
[00:25:42]
Those two books,
Let’s Back Up How to Grow Back
[00:25:45]
on NTC Contemporary Books
was bought by McGraw-Hill.
[00:25:49]
Oh, OK.
[00:25:50]
That’s the big house.
[00:25:52]
I had sent them my backboned guide series
[00:25:55]
proposal and they said,
yeah, you know what?
[00:25:58]
You really didn’t sell
much of that first book.
[00:26:00]
Yeah, we’re not interested.
[00:26:02]
Look, come on, man.
[00:26:05]
Oh.
[00:26:06]
Then there’s a local publisher here,
Cura Hensel Henshall House Books.
[00:26:10]
I’ve heard of Henshall harsher.
Yep.
[00:26:12]
So she published lifea and it’s also
published The Backbone Guide for Women.
[00:26:18]
And she became a friend of mine and was
living this experience with mom and dad.
[00:26:23]
So the subject of the fourth book,
I was telling her just things.
[00:26:26]
I don’t know what to do
with this attorney.
[00:26:28]
I’m nineteen hundred miles away.
[00:26:30]
I have to talk to doctors.
They’re hip allies.
[00:26:32]
There’s all this stuff she said, you know,
[00:26:34]
you really need to write
a book about this.
[00:26:36]
And like what?
[00:26:38]
And I kept saying to her,
[00:26:39]
I don’t know who I’m writing to
and I don’t know what I’m saying.
[00:26:43]
I’m not an expert in anything.
[00:26:44]
I’m simply stumbling through this whole
[00:26:46]
thing was to continue
to encourage me to do it.
[00:26:49]
And I thought after mom’s been gone
three years now, Dad’s gone for.
[00:26:53]
But in the aftermath of that,
you know what?
[00:26:56]
I think the contribution I want to make is
to write is clearly
[00:27:01]
and as candidly as I can about what
became kind of an emotional stew.
[00:27:06]
Five siblings.
[00:27:08]
Why did you do this?
[00:27:09]
Why did you not do that?
[00:27:10]
Doctors, attorneys.
[00:27:13]
It was caregivers, friends,
neighbors, the whole bit.
[00:27:17]
So that’s what I did.
[00:27:19]
Called Mom’s gone missing.
All right.
[00:27:21]
When a parent’s changing life upends yours
and the book literally opens
[00:27:25]
with the phone call I got from a mother
who was calling from Colorado.
[00:27:29]
I picked up my phone in Wisconsin,
[00:27:31]
mom in Arizona, and he said
to me, Mom’s gone missing.
[00:27:35]
Find her.
[00:27:37]
Oh, what
[00:27:40]
that started it.
[00:27:42]
That is crazy.
So I want to talk to you on the back up
[00:27:45]
to the first book that you
published 20 years ago.
[00:27:49]
Self publishing really wasn’t a thing
[00:27:51]
outside of going to a press
and paying thousands of dollars.
[00:27:55]
Have them actually physically print your
[00:27:56]
book where now you can just throw
it on Amazon or Ingram Ingram.
[00:28:03]
Spark,
and it’s out there to the world that you
[00:28:07]
have to really invest
thousands of dollars.
[00:28:10]
So, I mean, still to have a product
[00:28:12]
to sell,
but is way different to self publish now,
[00:28:15]
we easier than it was 20 years ago,
right? So 20 years ago,
[00:28:20]
to find a publisher was almost a
almost a half to kind of thing, right?
[00:28:25]
Well, it was.
[00:28:26]
And so I had.
[00:28:28]
You’ve been writing since I was
a kid when I was probably 15 or 16.
[00:28:32]
I promised my grandfather,
[00:28:34]
who I absolutely revered,
that someday I was going to write a book.
[00:28:39]
Hmm.
[00:28:39]
And in my teenage mind,
if I’m going to be just like
[00:28:42]
Danielle Steele and I’m going to
be the same book over and over,
[00:28:46]
I’m going to change the characters
and change locations.
[00:28:48]
Well, never in my wildest dreams did I
[00:28:50]
expect I’d write any kind
of business related book.
[00:28:53]
But knowing that I have this desire
[00:28:56]
at some point in my life
to write a book at that time.
[00:29:00]
To your point, it’s a really good one.
[00:29:01]
There was really nothing self publishing
[00:29:06]
like that was understandable
or usable to do
[00:29:11]
so that it meant you had
to find representation.
[00:29:14]
So I would go every year and I buy these
[00:29:16]
big fat guides to literary agents
and I would pore over those things.
[00:29:21]
What do they represent and where are they
[00:29:24]
and what kind of success that they
had in all these profiles.
[00:29:27]
And it’s like, holy cow.
[00:29:29]
But anyway, so and then when I wrote
letters in the kitchen,
[00:29:32]
which is where this journey started,
I would send it to one agent at a time
[00:29:37]
because that was publishing
protocol at that time.
[00:29:40]
You didn’t dare send in more than one
[00:29:41]
agent at once because they
really, really bad form.
[00:29:44]
Oh, yeah.
And so I’d send it out.
[00:29:46]
And then eight months, nine months,
[00:29:49]
sometimes 10 months later,
I’d get a thanks but no thanks.
[00:29:53]
Do you remember you’re probably too young,
[00:29:54]
but there was once upon a time
of printing called mimeographing.
[00:29:58]
Oh yeah.
[00:29:59]
Oh and you can just smell it was
purple letters and this cheesy paper.
[00:30:04]
I would get mimeograph things in the mail.
[00:30:06]
Thanks but no thanks.
[00:30:07]
Form letter two sentences.
[00:30:10]
So I got sick of that.
[00:30:12]
And so I think I sent it to eight
[00:30:14]
different agents at the time,
which is where it landed with the guy
[00:30:16]
in New York who called me and said,
You’re not interested in that book, but
[00:30:22]
why did you write
interesting and so funny?
[00:30:25]
Because then I published my book,
[00:30:27]
I Have A Sister that’s
that is published in Canada.
[00:30:31]
You have to find an agent.
[00:30:32]
And she was telling me the sequence
of events that has to happen.
[00:30:35]
And I’m like, no, no, no,
I don’t have the patience.
[00:30:40]
And I feel like it’s an archaic system.
[00:30:42]
So I’m self publishing
and then offered to agents like I’m not
[00:30:47]
I’m not going to wait for some
random person, maybe get back to me.
[00:30:52]
I get enough of that when
I sell my other business.
[00:30:55]
I mean, do with a book that I’m
going to make 50 cents on it.
[00:30:59]
Well, and that’s a big fallacy that people
[00:31:01]
have that like, oh, read a book,
you’re going to become rich and famous.
[00:31:04]
It doesn’t quite work that way either.
Not exactly.
[00:31:06]
You know, it’s interesting when you think
[00:31:09]
like you see like I said,
no, what you make in a book.
[00:31:12]
Right?
[00:31:12]
Even if it’s well,
even if it’s 70 percent.
[00:31:15]
Right.
[00:31:17]
20 percent of nine dollars,
you got to sell thousands of books to move
[00:31:22]
the needle at all to justify the expense
of time editing all that jazz, right?
[00:31:28]
Yeah.
[00:31:28]
So there’s a lot of people
that are just putting out junk.
[00:31:31]
They’re not spending much time writing and
they’re not spending any money editing.
[00:31:34]
So
[00:31:36]
their cost of goods sold is pretty low.
[00:31:39]
But I’m not interested
in putting out junk.
[00:31:42]
So just hit on something that I think is
really tough right now because people
[00:31:47]
who are interested in good,
solid business experience and advice,
[00:31:53]
how do you call through hundreds
and hundreds and hundreds of books
[00:31:57]
that are put together on a very limited
basis of experience and perspective
[00:32:01]
that are thrown out there,
that by people who may be right.
[00:32:04]
Well, and maybe don’t
so much out there more every day or every
[00:32:08]
week, because the self publishing has let
anybody who wants to hang off to do that.
[00:32:15]
Yeah, there’s no filter.
[00:32:16]
But you could you could argue,
based on a lot of the books that I’ve
[00:32:20]
read, the ones that are decades old
that were super fancy, awesome.
[00:32:26]
When I read them, I’m like, these are dry.
[00:32:29]
Like some of them are
[00:32:31]
repetitive to the point of being like,
this is a waste of paper.
[00:32:35]
You still read them because you’re like,
oh, did you ever read whatever?
[00:32:39]
And maybe you get a nugget out of them.
[00:32:40]
So it’s worth it.
[00:32:42]
But I guess that was the point
when I wrote my book.
[00:32:44]
The Bold Business book was the.
[00:32:47]
Cram all those into one book
and kind of be the Cliff’s Notes for
[00:32:51]
the next
[00:32:53]
step, because I was so sick of people just
giving ideal’s
[00:32:57]
or I guess a lot of times you run
into business coaches that are like, oh,
[00:33:00]
I’m super awesome, business
coach like, oh, that’s great.
[00:33:02]
Do you want a business now?
Right.
[00:33:05]
Or they own their coaching practice.
[00:33:07]
So I’m like, how do you have your your ear
[00:33:09]
to the railroad track kind
of thing to know what’s going on?
[00:33:13]
Yeah,
that’s you can tell your clients when
[00:33:16]
you’re your business experience is just
reading a book.
[00:33:21]
Well, and I think that’s
a challenge for everybody today.
[00:33:24]
Right.
[00:33:24]
We talk about quality and we have
different ideas about what that means.
[00:33:29]
Sure.
And I think, well,
[00:33:31]
there’s a whole pipeline here,
starting with education and going
[00:33:36]
on to higher ed and then that transferring
to business requirements,
[00:33:41]
transferring to success and international
business and all of that.
[00:33:46]
It’s a very complex environment that
people are just trying to find a place.
[00:33:53]
And that’s where
[00:33:55]
it’s I think in the case of education
of any kind in the book school
[00:34:00]
people are looking for a way to justify
throw out their money, whatever.
[00:34:05]
Maybe it’s for a university where it’s
[00:34:07]
many thousands of dollars
or a book where it’s 10 bucks or something
[00:34:11]
like
they’re trying to justify or find some way
[00:34:15]
to sift through the piles
of competition for lack of a better word.
[00:34:20]
Right.
[00:34:20]
There’s so many people and companies
and things trying to get their attention.
[00:34:24]
They’re got to figure out some
way to sift through it again.
[00:34:28]
And so many tools associated
[00:34:30]
with a particular coaching practice
or assessment or what have you.
[00:34:35]
And I’m seeing more and just actually had
[00:34:37]
a conversation about this over
the weekend with a colleague.
[00:34:40]
I’m seeing more tools that are
actually less effective
[00:34:44]
because there click and answer,
click and answer.
[00:34:47]
But there’s not a lot of time or thought.
Sure.
[00:34:50]
Put into some of these tools that are
providing feedback to individuals who are
[00:34:55]
genuinely interested or pressured
by an organization to develop skill
[00:35:02]
in order to grow, in order to be advanced,
in order to take on more responsibility.
[00:35:06]
So in my mind, there’s
kind of a mismatch there.
[00:35:09]
So that’s quick and easy to use.
[00:35:11]
How effective is it in getting
at some true human development needs?
[00:35:15]
Sure.
You know, it’s interesting is such a funny
[00:35:18]
point in the thick
of the story I went to this.
[00:35:21]
You invest in real estate conference after
[00:35:25]
about five years ago or
something like that.
[00:35:27]
I asked a buddy to come
with me and he’s like, there,
[00:35:31]
but leave your wallet at home
[00:35:33]
talking about because I’m like,
it’s kind of cool, right?
[00:35:37]
So bring some friends, some other
business owners and stuff like that.
[00:35:39]
We go to this thing and every presenter
is trying to hustle something.
[00:35:44]
Right?
I’m like, all right, you got a crowd.
[00:35:46]
I get it.
Nobody thing.
[00:35:48]
And there’s some nuggets of information.
[00:35:49]
So it’s worth it.
[00:35:51]
But this is one that came out there
[00:35:53]
and she’s trying to present
or trying to sell this
[00:35:58]
something that was like this.
[00:35:59]
Your strengths, find her some.
[00:36:01]
You know, we’re going to figure out
[00:36:02]
exactly what your employees are,
kind of the tools component.
[00:36:05]
I think she was comparing it to disk.
[00:36:07]
And I remember her standing up and being
[00:36:09]
like, you know, disk has
the four things decency.
[00:36:12]
And ours is four things.
[00:36:14]
But you can see they’re different.
[00:36:17]
She did this whole hand thing.
[00:36:19]
You got to be kidding me. What is this?
[00:36:23]
And still, to her credit, she gets done.
[00:36:26]
You know, Jabarin and people are lining up
[00:36:29]
to throw their few hundred bucks
at her for her little whatever it is.
[00:36:34]
So I’m like, wow, you know,
I actually I love that you said that.
[00:36:38]
True confession time.
[00:36:41]
I have been encouraged hundreds of times
[00:36:45]
over 30 years to package something
all right, worry less about the quality,
[00:36:51]
worry less about the outcome,
just package it and sell it.
[00:36:55]
May I make a ton?
[00:36:57]
And like I am, I am not put together
[00:37:01]
in such a way that I am able to do that,
I just can’t get it.
[00:37:07]
Yeah, I’m right there with you,
but got to come up with something
[00:37:10]
that people I just think
of how many workout videos.
[00:37:13]
Right.
[00:37:13]
People buy and they just
sit on the shelf like that.
[00:37:16]
DVD could be blank.
[00:37:17]
Can you have no idea.
You bought the cover.
[00:37:20]
You bought the description
and there is no different.
[00:37:25]
Interesting.
[00:37:26]
So how of book sales then this last one?
[00:37:30]
They have been extraordinary and there’s
[00:37:32]
a reason why people
hate the book find themselves.
[00:37:37]
They find themselves in being scared,
[00:37:40]
being uncertain, being angry,
being resentful,
[00:37:44]
having that clue on what to do next,
feeling guilty because they’re resentful.
[00:37:48]
All of that stuff, it’s a short book.
[00:37:50]
But people the feedback I’ve gotten
has been extraordinarily emotional.
[00:37:54]
Oh, interesting.
That’s cool.
[00:37:57]
That’s a good feeling.
[00:37:59]
It’s very gratifying, sure, it’s very,
very gratifying and I think because I’ve
[00:38:03]
written for so long, I have a natural
ease with words and ability to write
[00:38:11]
and can find the words to convey
[00:38:14]
a difficult emotional experience
in such a way that people will.
[00:38:17]
I get it.
I get it.
[00:38:18]
I’ve done that.
Sure.
[00:38:20]
So let’s shift into the coaching aspect
[00:38:23]
of the confidence,
the risk taking and the competence.
[00:38:29]
There you go.
How I think for a second
[00:38:33]
you got it is interesting.
[00:38:35]
Just I want to shift back to what we were
[00:38:37]
talking about before we
talk about the geeks.
[00:38:39]
Yeah, it’s interesting because it sounds
[00:38:40]
like they have the competence,
but they did not have the confidence and
[00:38:45]
it almost seemed like they didn’t want it
or didn’t didn’t feel it was a problem.
[00:38:49]
I think that’s true.
[00:38:50]
And I think, again,
going back to the introvert extrovert,
[00:38:53]
a lot of very cranial people
are very introverted.
[00:38:56]
They don’t want distraction.
[00:38:58]
Distractions drain their energy.
[00:39:00]
They just want to focus on doing what
they’re doing to the best that they can.
[00:39:03]
And it’s like the old
Dilbert cartoons, right?
[00:39:06]
Is.
[00:39:07]
Geeks got a bag
[00:39:10]
of pizza under the door.
Leave them alone,
[00:39:12]
they’ll come out in a week or 10 days or
six months with the greatest thing ever.
[00:39:17]
But don’t worry about it.
They’ll be fine.
[00:39:19]
And again, what I learned in talking
with a bunch of them and it wasn’t it
[00:39:25]
wasn’t just the I.T. people, it was
a cancer researcher is aerospace guy
[00:39:31]
technology for the rigs that failed
in the Challenger thing.
[00:39:34]
They don’t their motivation, the people
that I spoke with may be different now.
[00:39:39]
This is dated information, but they were
not interested in the least in sharing.
[00:39:44]
And I often wonder when we’re
looking at research for new
[00:39:48]
therapeutics, whether it’s recopied 19,
[00:39:50]
whether it’s for Alzheimer’s, whether
it’s for a particular kind of cancer.
[00:39:54]
That learning has not been shared
[00:39:59]
effectively enough or quickly enough
to bench practitioners so
[00:40:04]
good in the research labs and powers
and guided very carefully.
[00:40:09]
Course you look at the financial
structure, it’s funded by government
[00:40:13]
grants and foundations
and all that kind of stuff.
[00:40:15]
Nobody wants to give that up.
[00:40:17]
So that’s kind of a cynical point of view.
[00:40:19]
But again, the humanised
[00:40:22]
and the humanity of it is like, look,
if I can be king because I’ve got this
[00:40:26]
genome sequence, for example,
why would I give that away?
[00:40:30]
Sure.
[00:40:31]
So I think we’ve got a lot of work to do
in terms of getting people together
[00:40:37]
and effectiveness and experiences
and all that kind of thing.
[00:40:39]
But it’s hard.
[00:40:41]
And we only we see the world
the way we see the world.
[00:40:44]
Every human being has
a different seed in life.
[00:40:46]
Serena and I love to use the football
[00:40:49]
analogy, represent the football game
from the time I was a little kid.
[00:40:53]
Blago gets thrown on Aaron Rodgers,
[00:40:56]
for example, or Kenny Clarke
and I’m off the couch.
[00:40:58]
I’m like, what are you talking about?
That’s crazy.
[00:41:01]
And then you see the infraction
from the other side of the field.
[00:41:05]
OK.
All right.
[00:41:06]
Seven different camera angles.
Exactly.
[00:41:09]
And I think about life that way.
We see what we see.
[00:41:12]
There’s no way unless we
we put a pause on where we are and our
[00:41:18]
vantage point and go to somebody else
is that we won’t lose what we know.
[00:41:21]
We won’t lose that.
We see we will have an expanded view if we
[00:41:24]
go see from another person’s perspective,
that, too, is very difficult to do.
[00:41:31]
Right, because I imagine a lot of people
[00:41:33]
have to admit that they’re wrong
about something or change positions
[00:41:39]
or change.
[00:41:41]
Oh, that’s not very confident now, is it?
[00:41:44]
And in
[00:41:47]
both directions, I suppose the risk
is the ultimate in confidence
[00:41:52]
in my perspective when I see
something I hadn’t seen before.
[00:41:56]
Someone who either set it for the first
[00:41:59]
time or has totally 14 times
when I can finally leave my little cocoon
[00:42:04]
and go see what they see and go, oh,
I get it expands both of our knowledge.
[00:42:08]
And and it’s it strengthens
the relationship.
[00:42:13]
If I can say, gosh,
I never saw that before.
[00:42:15]
Thanks for showing me
that I was wrong if I was OK.
[00:42:20]
But those words I was wrong are so
[00:42:23]
difficult for some people to say
I didn’t see is easier.
[00:42:27]
I didn’t know that I didn’t
have that perspective.
[00:42:31]
Thanks for bringing this
to the to the table.
[00:42:33]
I think a lot about your point earlier
board meetings,
[00:42:36]
all these really smart people around
the table, we often
[00:42:40]
gravitate toward the person who speaks
most forcefully, perhaps the longest,
[00:42:46]
sometimes the most
frequently in a meeting.
[00:42:50]
And yet what he said or what she said
[00:42:52]
first is if we could get everybody
to put their perspective on the table.
[00:42:56]
Think of that buffet of information we
[00:42:59]
have that we can sort and piece together
in different configurations to have
[00:43:03]
a completely different understanding
than any of our competitors.
[00:43:07]
That’s the kind of stuff
that gets me excited right there.
[00:43:11]
I guess from my point of view is
that we take aboard a group on a board.
[00:43:17]
If someone doesn’t have the confidence
to tell me their opinion.
[00:43:21]
To me, that tells me that they don’t
have confidence in their opinion.
[00:43:25]
And though it may be that they’re more
introverted,
[00:43:29]
but if more introverted,
what are you doing on a board or
[00:43:33]
or are intimidated by another person
in the room that that they’ve told
[00:43:39]
themselves the story that is
more important than they are?
[00:43:42]
OK, that’s fair.
Where the challenge confidence.
[00:43:44]
But if they’re telling themselves a story
[00:43:46]
that’s totally fair, totally affairs,
they got to get to get over that.
[00:43:50]
Fix that.
[00:43:52]
Get it.
Yeah.
[00:43:54]
Come on and go help them.
[00:43:55]
Well,
realistically, because I’ve been on boards
[00:43:58]
where I would just you watch people just
banter back and forth
[00:44:02]
and I’ve been the leader on boards where I
just had to watch people just let them
[00:44:07]
get their steam out and all
that kind of stuff.
[00:44:09]
You just watch the ping pong conversation
[00:44:11]
sometimes have been part
of the ping pong conversation.
[00:44:14]
And I guess there have been times when I
change my mind or you understand
[00:44:17]
a perspective,
but other times you’re just like,
[00:44:20]
you know what, I’m going to agree with you
just so we can move on with our lives.
[00:44:26]
And I can see that decision in that that
[00:44:30]
that group for, you know,
it’s usually not a life threatening
[00:44:33]
decision or anything like that,
but sometimes it is.
[00:44:37]
And I think about the classic
Challenger origin story, right.
[00:44:40]
Where where they didn’t debate,
[00:44:42]
when they should have
where there was information withheld
[00:44:46]
for whatever reason, lack of confidence,
introversion, whatever, that might be
[00:44:50]
very real and some very small
amount about the story.
[00:44:55]
I know a tiny amount. So can you
share just a little of that?
[00:44:59]
The the engineering on the ring failed.
[00:45:02]
And even though they had tested and I
[00:45:04]
don’t I don’t get deeply involved
in the details of it as well.
[00:45:07]
But there was a meeting, probably several,
[00:45:09]
in which the engineers and scientists were
talking about this particular technology.
[00:45:14]
They tested it.
They tested, they tested it.
[00:45:16]
There was a guy,
at least one guy in the room.
[00:45:18]
Simon thought to himself,
[00:45:21]
I am not comfortable with this,
never said anything.
[00:45:25]
Oh, the rings fail.
[00:45:26]
The challenger exploded.
[00:45:27]
We lost a teacher and astronauts.
Right.
[00:45:31]
I mean, that’s an extraordinary scale.
Right.
[00:45:34]
But how many times have you been
[00:45:37]
in meetings where people will will look
uncomfortable, like now they’re not so
[00:45:42]
sure and they don’t know what to say
or how that comes back later.
[00:45:47]
Gosh, I wish we had had that conversation.
[00:45:52]
When I was the leader of the board
[00:45:54]
recently, I called people
out that weren’t talking.
[00:45:57]
Yeah.
[00:45:58]
And say, look, either you agree with us
or you agree with someone here.
[00:46:02]
I can’t say us because
there’s disagreement.
[00:46:05]
What’s your position?
[00:46:05]
Or you have another position that’s even
different than what everybody else has.
[00:46:10]
What do you think?
Just tell us where you’re at.
[00:46:13]
What do you think?
What’s your what’s preventing you
[00:46:16]
from speaking to try to give
them that opportunity?
[00:46:19]
Yeah.
[00:46:20]
And usually they’ve come up
with something, everyone.
[00:46:23]
I was something insightful.
[00:46:24]
They were like, oh, no,
we didn’t think of that.
[00:46:27]
Well, and that’s the value of it.
Right.
[00:46:30]
It can be hard for people to do
[00:46:32]
in that kind of a setting
if they began the story.
[00:46:35]
They tell themselves,
I’m not one of the in crowd here.
[00:46:39]
My viewpoint is so very different.
[00:46:40]
They’re going to laugh at me or I’m going
[00:46:42]
to sound like I don’t know what I’m
talking about or what have you.
[00:46:45]
Very real human things that happen.
[00:46:47]
So we just don’t you know, I’m good.
[00:46:49]
I’m good.
[00:46:51]
That is I can appreciate that.
[00:46:52]
And I totally agree with that.
[00:46:54]
That is so hard for me to understand
[00:46:56]
that another person would
have that lack of confidence.
[00:47:00]
But it’s also difficult for me
to understand, and I think therein is part
[00:47:04]
of the dynamic we’re trying
to solve here, right?
[00:47:07]
Because when people meet someone like you
[00:47:10]
who is as confident as you are and willing
to try and experiment that kind of thing,
[00:47:14]
and they’re not
they feel oftentimes not exclusively,
[00:47:19]
but oftentimes the sense is one
of inferiority and not as good as he is.
[00:47:24]
I’m not as smart as he is.
[00:47:25]
I can’t process as best he does.
[00:47:27]
I can’t hold my footing in the
kitchen with that guy.
[00:47:31]
So I have funny I have told
[00:47:33]
have been told by an employee that I think
too fast, like you can speed yours up.
[00:47:40]
It’s OK.
[00:47:43]
I’m a big fan of brain research because
we think people should be able to speed it
[00:47:48]
up and our wiring is just very,
very differently.
[00:47:50]
Sure.
Than just thinking different.
[00:47:53]
Yeah.
[00:47:53]
In this case, for her job,
she just needs to speed it up.
[00:47:58]
But that’s I guess, beside the point.
[00:48:00]
What might be better at it?
[00:48:04]
What does she need to get better
[00:48:05]
at to elevator confidence
in order to speed it up? Right.
[00:48:08]
That’s that’s fair.
[00:48:09]
That’s the conversation I’ve been
having with her for a long time, Miles.
[00:48:15]
So how you her right,
you value her totally, absolutely.
[00:48:21]
Oh, yeah, if I didn’t,
she wouldn’t be working for.
[00:48:25]
That’s how it works.
Yeah, totally.
[00:48:27]
So there’s an investment in time, yes,
it’s worth taking from my point of view,
[00:48:33]
and arguably could totally argue risk
because what I’m presenting something
[00:48:38]
to an employee like that or I’m
asking for them to improve.
[00:48:42]
There’s some employees
that just don’t take that.
[00:48:45]
They don’t like that.
[00:48:46]
And therefore they’ll jump ship
because they don’t either.
[00:48:50]
They don’t feel like they need to improve
or they don’t like someone like me coming
[00:48:53]
in and saying, look, you have
to improve that you’re not up to par.
[00:48:58]
And so then the question becomes,
[00:49:00]
how hard do you push that right to weed
out people who simply will not ever?
[00:49:06]
And how fast has it potentially been
someone that really is quality?
[00:49:12]
Yeah, there’s there’s always the reining
[00:49:15]
in that I have to take of my because
there’s there’s a laundry list of stuff
[00:49:20]
that you want to fix with your
employees at any given moment.
[00:49:21]
Right.
Which is a big deal.
[00:49:24]
Some is not a big deal.
[00:49:25]
You got to figure out, OK,
what’s worth the battle
[00:49:28]
and many battles are over.
[00:49:31]
No, I think that’s true. And then what
resources do we have to allocate to this
[00:49:34]
versus all of the other things we
have to allocate resources to?
[00:49:37]
Right.
But then you bring up the culture
[00:49:40]
of the business where you
can have other employees
[00:49:43]
helping to get the each other
up to speed up to par.
[00:49:48]
So there’s some it’s less competitive
and more cooperative in that case.
[00:49:54]
So it takes some time
to to form that culture.
[00:49:57]
But yeah, it’s been.
[00:50:01]
So for most employees or every
employee that’s worth keeping.
[00:50:04]
I feel it’s worth the investment.
[00:50:06]
Absolutely no problem pushing them because
in the end, if they can’t take the push,
[00:50:11]
that means either they’re not willing
to improve or they don’t believe that they
[00:50:16]
can improve or they’re just not a good
fit, even if they can’t improve.
[00:50:20]
But they feel like they can’t with my
[00:50:22]
with my guidance,
then is not going to be a good fit because
[00:50:26]
one of them is going and
I’m the owner of the business
[00:50:30]
that’s they’re going to buy the company,
which would be totally cool.
[00:50:35]
Yeah, that’s fine.
Yeah.
[00:50:36]
You get to make the rules.
[00:50:37]
We sometimes lose sight of the fact
that we’re all human beings and there are
[00:50:41]
chapters that we each confront
and question our lives unfolding
[00:50:45]
that sometimes make us just unable
to learn in a given moment or period.
[00:50:50]
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
[00:50:51]
And that is part of this whole
the whole dynamic.
[00:50:54]
Yeah, you’re right.
[00:50:55]
You run the business,
you get to make the rules.
[00:50:57]
In the end, it’s.
[00:51:00]
Not a democracy, it can’t be,
it’s not there’s a reason that governments
[00:51:04]
are democracies, businesses,
generally speaking,
[00:51:07]
are not at least you don’t have the entire
lot of people voting on something.
[00:51:11]
They don’t have all the information
because we expect them to do their job.
[00:51:15]
So that’s just the way of it, right.
[00:51:19]
So, Suzanne, holy cow,
we ran through so much time.
[00:51:22]
How can people find your books?
[00:51:25]
A number of ways, probably the quickest
[00:51:27]
and easiest, SusanAMarshall.com,
we are in a transition mode here.
[00:51:32]
All right.
[00:51:33]
Institute to Susan A Marshall,
because I really believe that this book is
[00:51:37]
going to touch a lot of people as baby
boomers continue to age,
[00:51:41]
as we are more and more
called upon to deal with aging parents
[00:51:46]
and even family members
with extended illnesses.
[00:51:49]
So, SusanAMarshall, if you go to that website,
you’ll find all books.
[00:51:52]
And at the very bottom right corner,
you’ll find a link to Backbone Institute,
[00:51:57]
which will take you to all of those
resources that have been built up over
[00:52:00]
many years. Podcasts, videos, and articles,
and books and all kinds of stuff.
[00:52:06]
Sure.
Very cool. What do you see for the future?
[00:52:09]
I guess with your business,
will you be pushing more towards
[00:52:12]
the Backbone Institute or more
towards Susan Marshall? Ask me in 6 months.
[00:52:19]
What I’m finding that’s really been
[00:52:20]
interesting and I have not been
a goal setter planner type person.
[00:52:26]
Peter Block is one of my favorite authors.
[00:52:27]
He wrote a book called
The Answer to How is Yes.
[00:52:30]
I literally lived my life that way.
[00:52:33]
I’m opportunistic.
[00:52:35]
Strategic, yes.
[00:52:36]
In the sense that you can cut through
things, you know, are noisy and they’re
[00:52:39]
going to be a waste
of your time and energy.
[00:52:40]
But what I find interesting is,
[00:52:42]
as we’re working on building up
Susan A Marshall website and the author
[00:52:46]
and all that kind of thing,
that is coincidentally and simultaneously
[00:52:51]
creating more opportunities
for Backbone Institute.
[00:52:53]
So what I’m what I’m beginning to draw
[00:52:56]
from that is when you have a voice,
when you are unapologetic but humble,
[00:53:05]
what you offer and how you can
help people that attracts others.
[00:53:13]
Fair. Assessments and tools and all
[00:53:14]
those kinds of things, but I certainly
know a lot of providers who do.
[00:53:19]
And if that’s a wonderful place
to start from, that’s great.
[00:53:22]
This whole covid world and all
these Zoom meetings, people are zoomed out.
[00:53:28]
I think the pendulum is going to swing.
[00:53:31]
Who knows when,
[00:53:33]
but. Wait, how so? Out of people who said
technology is here to stay.
[00:53:37]
We’re never going to get back together
in big groups again, I’m not a believer. Never?
[00:53:43]
I don’t know about that. We are
social creatures, man.
[00:53:47]
So and I can tell you from a guy
that just went to a motorcycle gathering.
[00:53:52]
Social gatherings are happening.
[00:53:55]
Yes, overtly or covertly,
so back to where they get the book.
[00:53:58]
SusanAMarshall.Com, of course,
[00:54:00]
BarnesandNoble.com, Amazon.com,
you know the providers of books.
[00:54:04]
So and in fact, all four of the books
[00:54:08]
can be found on my website and Backbone
Institute website and on Amazon.
[00:54:13]
Gotcha.
[00:54:13]
So tell me again your web site,
the Backbone Institute, is that right?
[00:54:17]
BackboneInstitute LLC.
[00:54:19]
OK.
[00:54:20]
SusanAMarshall.com,
SusanAMarshall.com.
[00:54:24]
Awesome.
[00:54:25]
Thank you so much for being
on the show today, Susan.
[00:54:27]
I feel like we could talk for another few
[00:54:29]
hours we’ll have to get you back
on the show if you’re cool with that.
[00:54:32]
I would be.
I would love to do that.
[00:54:34]
Yeah, it’s been a lot of fun, thanks for having
me and good luck to you.
[00:54:37]
Oh, it’s it’s.
[00:54:39]
Yeah, thanks.
[00:54:41]
I feel like we’re in the same circle here,
just doing what we can to make the world
[00:54:44]
a better place.
Absolutely. Do what we can,
[00:54:48]
right?
This has been Authentic.
[00:54:50]
Business Adventures, the business program
that brings the struggle
[00:54:53]
stories and triumphant successes
of business owners across the land.
[00:54:57]
Coming to you remotely and through Sun Praire
[00:54:59]
community studios
underwritten by Bank of Sun Prairie.
[00:55:02]
My name is James Kademan
[00:55:04]
and Authentic Business Adventures is
brought to you by Calls On Call, offering call
[00:55:08]
answering services for businesses in,
well, anywhere, right, across the country.
[00:55:13]
All the ones that are terrible
at answering their phone,
[00:55:16]
on the web at CallsOnCall.com.
As well as Draw In Customers Business
[00:55:19]
Coaching offering business coaching
services for entrepreneurs in all stages
[00:55:23]
of their business, on the web
at DrawInCustomers.com.
[00:55:26]
And of course, The BOLD Business Book
[00:55:28]
a book for the entrepreneur in all of us,
[00:55:30]
available on Amazon
and wherever fine books are sold.
[00:55:34]
I’d like to thank you our wonderful
[00:55:35]
listeners as well as our
guest, Susan Marshall.
[00:55:38]
Susan, thank you so much
for being on the show.
[00:55:40]
Absolutely a joy, James.
Thank you.
[00:55:42]
This has been super cool. Find us airing on 103.5
Wednesdays at 1:00 p.m.,
[00:55:46]
Sundays at 3:00 p.m. That’s in the Sun Prairie
area. This is national on the Internets
[00:55:50]
got you covered here
at SunPrairieMediaCenter.Com.
[00:55:54]
Past episodes can be found
[00:55:55]
morning, noon, and night at the podcast link found at DrawInCustomers.com.
[00:55:59]
Thank you for listening, we will see you next week.
[00:56:01]
I want you to stay awesome.
[00:56:02]
And if you do nothing else,
enjoy your business.
