Scott McGohan – McGohan Brabender and author of Culture Is An Inside Job

Real Life Advice You Can Use: “What if we just stood in front of the workforce and just said, “Hey, I just I just wanna be better.” That’s a lot more honest than saying, I wanna be great.”

Every company has a culture.  Just like any relationship between a group of people does.

The challenge is being aware of what the culture is and knowing if the culture your company has is serving your company and it’s employees well, or if it is causing some negative results.

Scott McGohan, entrepreneur and author of Culture Is An inside Job, details how important company culture is, what to look for to find out what your employees believe is your company’s culture and what you can do to make sure the culture you want is more aligned with the culture your business has.

Enjoy!

Visit Scott at: https://www.mcgohanbrabender.com/

Culture Is an Inside Job Book: https://www.amazon.com/Culture-Inside-Job-Self-Awareness-Organization/dp/B0C31F5WYV

Authentic Business Adventures Podcast

Podcast Overview:

03:47 Supporting employees financially, including retirement and shares.
08:29 Tax benefits for businesses to reinvest profits.
11:27 New employees seek rules and rewards. Culture shapes.
13:49 Self-awareness, emotional intelligence, rebuilding, founder’s kid, revenue management.
19:10 Revealing personal growth and self-acceptance journey.
20:35 Reflecting on change, coaching, and self-awareness.
24:10 Dichotomy between pursuing goals and their consequences.
29:15 Balancing ego and time as a business owner.
31:43 Business owners frustrated with excessive paperwork piles.
33:31 Learning from life mistakes and experiences.
37:44 Improving honesty, not greatness, is essential.
40:23 Storytelling reinforces organization’s values and behavior.
48:03 Perception of caring versus actual care.
51:22 Resistance to change leads to confusion and disapproval.
54:40 Authentic Business Adventures features business owner stories.

Podcast Transcription:

James [00:00:01]:

You have found Authentic Business Adventures, the business program that brings you the struggle stories and triumphant successes of business owners across the land. Downloadable audio episodes can be found in the podcast link found at draw in customers.com. We are locally underwritten by the Bank of Sun Prairie. My name is James Kademan, entrepreneur, author, speaker, a helpful coach to small business owners across the country. And today, we’re welcoming slash preparing to learn from Scott McGowan of McGowan Broadbender. But I am excited to talk to Scott because we’re talking about company culture, which is something that I didn’t even know was a thing until I got employees. So, Scott, why don’t you tell us let’s just start with what is, McGowan Broadbender, and then we can dive into company culture.

Scott McGohan [00:00:44]:

Yeah. Well, hey. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. We represent, about 1500 employers. So what we really do is actually help Employers make decisions in regards to their benefit structure, their health plans, disability, dental, and help them, orchestrate those financially, communicate those to the workforce strategically, and then reach back and service the those employers and those, those employees along the way. So about a 100,000 employees that we represent inside of our customers, Roughly about, maybe I say, quarter of a 1000000 belly buttons, moms, dads, kids, families, and about a 1000000000 and a half of health care health care spend. And, we love what we do.

James [00:01:27]:

Alright. How did you get into that?

Scott McGohan [00:01:30]:

You know, my dad started in 1972. Woah.

James [00:01:34]:

Okay. That’s a while ago.

Scott McGohan [00:01:35]:

Yeah. He started in 1972. I started here. I think I was the, 6th employee in 1988. Today, we probably have roughly between 2 companies close to 500 people and 5 different offices. And

James [00:01:50]:

Wow. Alright. And are you in charge of all that?

Scott McGohan [00:01:54]:

I was. I went from a CEO role. That changed in September. We’ve transitioned our leadership team to a new CEO and a new president. Okay. And then we actually sold our company to our employees, right in the middle of COVID. So we are an ESOP employee owned company.

James [00:02:13]:

Wow. So is that was the planning for that pre pandemic, or was that during the pandemic?

Scott McGohan [00:02:20]:

I think it was really the whole thing around, you know, obviously, you know, private equities coming at us, Public companies were coming at us, and we probably could’ve sold for a lot, had a cool beach house, and all kinds of stuff like that. But, You know, I’ve been on around long enough to know what happens, and there’s nothing wrong. I mean, capitalism’s wonderful in this in this world. That’s why we have it. But what we really cared about is each community, our workforce. And we knew the ESOP was probably had the most virtue inside of that decision.

James [00:02:51]:

Okay.

Scott McGohan [00:02:52]:

To keep jobs locally and keep our organization local. And, so it was really around A position to be fiercely independent.

James [00:03:01]:

Oh, interesting. Okay.

Scott McGohan [00:03:03]:

And we’ve had that posture, well, since the inception.

James [00:03:07]:

So the ESOP thing, I guess, let’s just go down that rabbit hole a little bit because that’s always been intriguing to me. I I have a buddy of mine that used to work at a place that has ESOP, and they’ve been that way for a long time. It was grocery store or is a grocery store. And there are baggers, grocery tellers, and stuff like that that made they became millionaires because they stayed working that long, and the business grew really big from just a few grocery stores. So it’s interesting to me like, woah, that’s a thing. Yeah. So it’s interesting. So can you tell me more about that? I guess, why why you chose that road and how big of a deal or how challenging it was to put that together? It’s tough.

Scott McGohan [00:03:47]:

It’s only for the right, you know, right kind of people, because it is, It is a long process, you know, legally, structurally, those sorts of things. But, you know, we also You know, one of the things that we really wanted to do, and it was kind of an edict from my dad, is that he never wanted an employee have to come in and ever borrow money to to get a paint plane ticket to go see their kids. Oh. We we always had this position that we would match our four zero one k up to 6%. Always have, always will. And then the ESOP is really it’s, it’s probably like a just a stack on top of a retirement plan. So every year, employees are given shares of the company. They don’t have to buy them.

Scott McGohan [00:04:29]:

They’re actually given to them.

James [00:04:31]:

Okay.

Scott McGohan [00:04:32]:

And then when you leave here, You leave with your four zero one k savings. You leave with your ESOP shares. And, you know, and hopefully, at the end of the day, you know, we have Folks here that are here 20, 30 years and retire very, very comfortably.

James [00:04:46]:

Alright. So is there tell me about an employee that comes on. Is there a minimum length of time before they join the ESOP? And then if they leave, what do they do with the shares? Who do they sell them to?

Scott McGohan [00:04:58]:

Yeah. There’s like a vesting schedule. So bay and every company’s, you know, different. So, when we when we actually started it, everyone that, actually was physically there in the room the day we announced it, got chairs, which was really cool. Okay. I had a new hire come up to me, and she goes, I’m gonna go call my mom and dad. I’m like, what are you gonna tell them? And she said, I’m gonna tell them I own a company. I’m like, that’s awesome.

Scott McGohan [00:05:21]:

Go call your mom and dad. Tell me you own a company. But, you know, when you leave, employment, then the ESOP actually buys those shares back.

James [00:05:31]:

Alright. And how they how do they figure out value at that moment?

Scott McGohan [00:05:37]:

Every year, there’s an evaluation That’s done by an outside entity, so an a trustee manages that. And that trustee is really hired to protect the employees.

James [00:05:48]:

Okay.

Scott McGohan [00:05:49]:

Because you can imagine. I don’t know. There’s probably be some shenanigans if you had a bunch of business owners saying, hey, we’re gonna sell the company to the employees, and we’ll let them know what it’s worth. And I’m not saying that, you know, people are manipulating, but there is an independent trustee that sits over the entire thing, and their job is solely to protect the employees of the organization.

James [00:06:09]:

Alright. So as I’m picturing this, you correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like every time you add an employee that the total number of shares would then increase. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yep. So then if you take the total valuation of the company each share, every time you add an employee, then it goes down a little bit. Is that right?

Scott McGohan [00:06:29]:

Yeah. There’s a way to neutralize on that. It’s almost like buying a you know, every year, the the the the, the stock, obviously, the price changes. Hopefully, it goes up, And it has gone up significantly. But because of the distribution of new shares, it it would not mean that other owners would get suppressed because of that.

James [00:06:47]:

Okay.

Scott McGohan [00:06:48]:

Yeah. So everyone’s protected in that. The same same case would be if someone sold a lot of shares. They’re not suppressed by that financial liability of paying off shares.

James [00:06:59]:

Got it. Okay. Interesting. So how does that work from the company side? Because that means that you, the company, I guess, the ESOP, would have to have somewhat of a piggy bank set aside so that if an employee leaves that you can essentially buy them out. Yeah. That Yeah. So you know kinda thing. Right?

Scott McGohan [00:07:19]:

Right. So you’ve gotta build that up, build cash up over and the government really quite frankly, the government really incents, ESOPs. Oh, they do. They do. And here’s why. You know, Social Security is gonna be bankrupt in, we believe, 2027. Ben and I are, yeah, you and I are probably old enough to know that we’ve we’ve heard those warnings before. Right?

James [00:07:42]:

Yeah. For decades.

Scott McGohan [00:07:43]:

Yep. For decades. But the the thing with an ESOP, what the government sees is the fact that, it’s an extra layer of retirement income For Okay. For, for Americans. And when Americans don’t have retirement savings, unfortunately, they can rest on Social Security, But that isn’t enough.

James [00:08:02]:

Mhmm.

Scott McGohan [00:08:03]:

Then they have to pay for Medicare. And then, unfortunately, if they would dip below that, they go into Medicaid, which is also a government program.

James [00:08:09]:

Mhmm.

Scott McGohan [00:08:09]:

So the government sees this as a vehicle to protect actually, a layer, but, before someone hits the safety net. So under an ESOP, there is no taxation of an organization. There’s no federal taxes. None.

James [00:08:27]:

Oh, interesting.

Scott McGohan [00:08:29]:

So so if you’re a business, and let’s just say you you earn $1,000,000, if If you’re an s corp, you’d have to pay individual taxes on that based on the shareholders. Or if you’re a c corp, you’d have to pay federal taxes. So So the government has said, look, we’ll just defer all taxation on the on the entity, and then those dollars can be used to reinvest, Fund ESOP moving forward. So creatively, they’ve done a really nice job in making that available for, for organizations.

James [00:08:59]:

Interesting. Okay. I didn’t know that. Because I know c corporation, you’re essentially double taxed if you’re single member.

Scott McGohan [00:09:05]:

Right.

James [00:09:05]:

The company gets taxed on profits, then they pay those profits to you, and then you get taxed on them.

Scott McGohan [00:09:10]:

Yep.

James [00:09:11]:

And s corporation, there’s a little bit of a game you can play, but it essentially, you’re still taxed.

Scott McGohan [00:09:15]:

Correct.

James [00:09:16]:

Faster taxed. So the ESOP, that’s very interesting. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. The paperwork that you’re doing, Is it more, like, operating agreement type stuff, or is it you have to file something with the government or some

Scott McGohan [00:09:30]:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So there’s

James [00:09:32]:

let them know this is Who owns the company kind of thing?

Scott McGohan [00:09:35]:

Department of Labor or trustee, governing boards, structure.

James [00:09:39]:

Okay.

Scott McGohan [00:09:40]:

But, you know, quite frankly, it’s It it’s the way a lot of companies run their business anyway. Okay. So it’s not it’s not abundantly of you know, overwhelming.

James [00:09:49]:

Interesting. And is this I guess, me, the company that I have, the call answering service, we have employees all over the country in different states. I don’t know. Are you guys all in an office where 1 state’s involved, or are you where you have

Scott McGohan [00:10:02]:

both different offices in 3 states.

James [00:10:06]:

Okay. Okay. So there’s some variety there. Yep. And was that so with the the ESOP, that’s a federal thing, I imagine. So did the states, plural, get involved at all?

Scott McGohan [00:10:17]:

You know, not that I’m aware of. I’m sure our I’m sure our CFO would have an opinion on my on my statement.

James [00:10:24]:

Gotcha. Okay. That’s fair. Yeah. Yeah. That’s fair. I wanna shift gears and talk about company culture. You wrote a book pretty recently.

James [00:10:35]:

And the, I guess, when you reached out to me, the talk of company culture was that’s just something that piqued my interest. Because we’re talking, I don’t know, maybe 10 years ago. I met a woman at a networking event, and she said that her business helps companies with their culture. And I was thinking, come on. You just hire employees. They’re awesome. You pay them. They go home.

James [00:10:59]:

Rinse, repeat. And then I learned as I had more employees that that is not necessarily the case.

Scott McGohan [00:11:06]:

Yep.

James [00:11:06]:

So can you speak on that, the book, company culture, all that jazz, what has worked for you?

Scott McGohan [00:11:11]:

Yeah. I mean, I think every company has a culture whether they want 1 or not. And if you think you don’t need 1, you don’t have to have 1. This this is America, but you have 1 whether you want 1 or not.

James [00:11:25]:

Right. It’s like a personality. It just happens.

Scott McGohan [00:11:27]:

100%. And then, historically, what I’ve seen with the workforce is when people come in our organization, all of our organizations, People really are curious about 2 things. Number 1 is this is not our employee handbooks or In the language and onboarding people, but they’re looking at number 1, how do I get in trouble around here? Oh. And number 2, how do I get rewarded? And if that’s wonky Okay. Yeah. That’s wonky in your organizations. Your culture is your culture’s wonky. And, you know, a a culture of an organization is is really, at at least in my opinion, about, you know, the the owner, Ownership structure, the leaders of the organization.

Scott McGohan [00:12:11]:

What do you want your workforce to wake up and drive into work and think about? You know, what what does that mean? And it and it better by golly be a heck of a lot more about them as human beings

James [00:12:22]:

Right.

Scott McGohan [00:12:22]:

About their families, about their future, About their prosperity than it is yours. And then a culture, you know, it’s like a child. Like, you gotta nurture it. You gotta grow it. You gotta feed it. And then in most organizations, what I really talk to a lot of people about is and inside your companies, what you allow, you actually encourage. So you really gotta look at it.

James [00:12:45]:

Alright. Let me think. Okay. What you allow, you encourage. Oh, I love that. Okay. Little scary, but true.

Scott McGohan [00:12:54]:

It is. You know? And, honestly, the reason why the book came out is, about 25 years ago, I had an assistant come on my office and say, you have values painted on the walls. You don’t exhibit one of them. I have my own social values. Oh, yeah. And today’s my last day. And my first thought was, who else heard that? So I was looking out the door like, did anyone else hear that conversation? Yeah. And then I went home, and I was more nervous with what people would think about me with her leaving than physically her leaving, Which is kind of a sick twisted thought.

James [00:13:28]:

Yeah.

Scott McGohan [00:13:28]:

Went back and kinda talked to her and said, hey, if I heard a coach and I gave you access to that coach, And it’s obviously I know how to produce. I know how to grow results, but maybe I lack the ability to influence and encourage people. And we made an agreement. We’d ask each other questions every day. Am I okay? Are you okay? Are we okay?

James [00:13:48]:

To the coach or to each other? You and her?

Scott McGohan [00:13:49]:

To each other. Yeah. And then it really gave me, like, a breath of maybe checking out and and and understanding the true gift of self awareness and and emotional intelligence. And, I got to really go back and rebuild myself From ultimately, at the end of the day, I was a founder’s kid. Every company has one of me in it. They’re called destructive heroes. There there are people that manage a lot of revenue. There are people that leaders tolerate.

Scott McGohan [00:14:21]:

There there there are people that we, unfortunately, have people quit because of these people. And what I’m really encouraging employers is they’re tearing apart your financials, but you’re but you’re Terrified of doing something about it. Now some destructive heroes, and I’m one of them, they they’re they can be redeemed and they can be restored, but they’re actually costing your organization a lot, a lot of money.

James [00:14:46]:

Tell me so I relate to that, so I wanna dig into that a little bit. The destructive hero tell me about the hero portion.

Scott McGohan [00:14:53]:

The hero part of it is they think they’re heroes. They’re not.

James [00:14:57]:

They individually, not necessarily other people in the company. Correct. Oh. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Well, that hurts. Okay.

James [00:15:05]:

And the destructive part tell me about the destructive part.

Scott McGohan [00:15:09]:

Oh, they just tear things apart. I mean, they tear people apart. You know, they they work 80 hours a week and shove 80 hours a week down someone that’s working 40 hours a week. They manipulate. You know, they talk about behind people’s back. They’ll do whatever it takes to make, like, things happen.

James [00:15:26]:

Okay. So the ultimate goal, It sounds like it’s positive. It’s just, different means, not necessarily the best means of achieving that goal.

Scott McGohan [00:15:36]:

Correct. Yep.

James [00:15:38]:

But is it there must be value in that, though, because I meant see, like, I can relate to this totally. Totally. And so maybe that’s me just trying to justify this. But is the idea that with the destructive hero, things can get done faster. There’s just somewhat of a a wake behind?

Scott McGohan [00:15:56]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You have to really ask yourself what’s that costing your organization.

James [00:16:01]:

Okay. Fair.

Scott McGohan [00:16:02]:

That costing your organization in regards to even customer relationships, Relationships inside the building. You know, and some I I was doing a class one time. This guy and guy said, I don’t have a culture. I don’t need one. Like, well, you have 1. He goes, no. I don’t. I’m like, yeah.

Scott McGohan [00:16:15]:

You got 1. I can tell you right now. And if you’re the type of organization that quite frankly just, You know, looks at results, and that’s all you care about.

James [00:16:24]:

Mhmm.

Scott McGohan [00:16:25]:

You can you can collect a lot of people that’ll work for you. Just don’t lie to them and tell them you care about them mean, you care about their future, and you’re like, just say, I wanna make a pile of money, and you’re gonna you’re gonna make some too. Let’s go

James [00:16:36]:

run the

Scott McGohan [00:16:36]:

fun, beat the drums. And it the purpose of the book is really around who are you on the inside that needs to be restored and redeemed? Who is your organization? And how do you want that to come into life? Because a lot of companies will say, I wanna be like Google. I want ping pong tables and ball chairs. I’m like, you’re in manufacturing. You like, you can’t pull that off. No. To who are you, and who do you wanna be? And then make that honest. You don’t have to you don’t have to lie to yourself.

Scott McGohan [00:17:01]:

Certainly, don’t lie to others. Does does that make sense?

James [00:17:04]:

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me let’s go back to when your did you call her secretary?

Scott McGohan [00:17:09]:

Yeah. Assistant. Yep.

James [00:17:10]:

Assistant. Okay. When she comes to you and she’s like, hey. You got all these principles on the wall. You don’t follow any of them. Was she wrong?

Scott McGohan [00:17:18]:

You know, I asked my wife that. I was like and, and my wife said, well, she’s right. And I’m like, why didn’t you ever tell me? And she said, well, I I did, but you don’t you don’t listen. And then I talked to my kids, and they were little. I’m we’re talking 25 years ago.

James [00:17:31]:

And Mhmm.

Scott McGohan [00:17:32]:

Well, here’s what I realized. Our kids aren’t gonna tell us truth because if they do, they lose stuff like cell phone and car keys. I mean you know? And then so in the book, it really talks about who’s your truth teller inside inside your organization. Victoria retired from here Last year after 25 years, and I got to, we have a victory card in our building. We wheel people around when we celebrate big events. I got to wheel her in her front seat of her car. Big hug, so she was my truth teller.

James [00:18:01]:

Alright. So she so at that day, when she was ready to walk

Scott McGohan [00:18:05]:

Yep.

James [00:18:06]:

You made it like, okay. Let’s just make a plan. And she was willing to give you a chance, which is incredible.

Scott McGohan [00:18:13]:

Yep. And stayed 25 years.

James [00:18:15]:

Alright. So let me let me ask you when you said, like, hey. There’s a plan. Let’s fix this kind of thing. I imagine something like that to me is very difficult to change in a light switch instant.

Scott McGohan [00:18:28]:

Mhmm.

James [00:18:29]:

So that means that she had to put up with some gray area between You being you at the time and you being the person that she wanted you to be later. Tell me about that.

Scott McGohan [00:18:39]:

Yeah. You know, I I got a coach, and that coach really kinda helped me kind of Maybe unwrap. I had a really warped sense of self, so my perception of self was self worth equaled performance plus the opinions of other people.

James [00:18:53]:

Okay.

Scott McGohan [00:18:53]:

In other words, your opinion of me meant more than my own opinion of myself. So Oh. And then what you end up doing and if you’re in sales, it’s even worse Because those of us that are in sales are really used to being a chameleon. So I’ll be act one way in front of a CFO, one way in front of HR.

James [00:19:09]:

Yeah. You gotta adapt. Yeah.

Scott McGohan [00:19:10]:

Yeah. And so I just really had to go back and say, hey. I you know, I’ve gotta throw some masks away. I gotta I gotta I gotta I gotta break them. I’m gonna create 1 identity, and that identity is the relationship with that with that I have with myself regardless of what Other person comes into my life, and that was a lot of hard work. Took a lot of time. But, You know, initially, when I got the coach, and honestly, it was I’d like to say my reasons for getting the coach were Super virtual, virtuous. You know, I was just trying to get out of trouble.

Scott McGohan [00:19:46]:

I mean, I was just, totally fair. I gotta get, I come in trouble. I gotta get out of trouble, but, You know, through, like, 5 or 6 years of reading emotional intelligence, learning about, you know, the power of self awareness, I got really curious about people. Mhmm. How do you encourage people? How do you influence people? How do you give them a reputation to live up to? And I think that’s why, I was asked to be the CEO after after so many years. I don’t think that guy 25 years ago would have been running anything.

James [00:20:19]:

Oh, really? Okay.

Scott McGohan [00:20:20]:

No. No.

James [00:20:21]:

So what position were you in 25 years ago?

Scott McGohan [00:20:24]:

I was in sales.

James [00:20:25]:

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So you were the the founder’s son. Right?

Scott McGohan [00:20:30]:

Yep. They stuck

James [00:20:31]:

you in sales.

Scott McGohan [00:20:32]:

Yep. I was in sales. Yep.

James [00:20:35]:

So did you so here’s I guess, this is probably more a reflection on me as I’m talking to you. You made this change. We’re going through the coaching and stuff like this. Was there ever a moment or a time when you listen to the coach and you’re like, you know what? But acting this way or being the way I am has gotten me pretty good and gotten the company pretty far and helped me made sales, and it’s actually not as negative as a lot of people are making it out to be because some of them feel like I hurt their feelings. So is there any other I don’t know. Kind of the the angel and devil on your shoulders there, chatting?

Scott McGohan [00:21:12]:

100%. I mean, honestly, I mean, I was I was trying to fill a big hole in my soul with stuff. And I was good at sales. So I had cars, boats, you know, lake home, had all the things. Okay. But, I’ve always said that the mirror is a wonderful place to find a friend.

James [00:21:31]:

I mean,

Scott McGohan [00:21:32]:

I never I was never a friend with myself. I was just ultimately just I was just scared.

James [00:21:38]:

Okay. And Scared of

Scott McGohan [00:21:42]:

not knowing who I was And being a fake.

James [00:21:45]:

Okay. You felt like you’re just a rat on the wheel kind of thing.

Scott McGohan [00:21:48]:

100%. And I thought the cars and clothes and things would make that all better, And it and it didn’t.

James [00:21:55]:

That’s not a lot of others.

Scott McGohan [00:21:58]:

And then, you know, through self awareness and Through a torquing in my soul and so forth. By the grace of God, I got to keep all my stuff And, got to grow as a better father, a better husband, and a better friend, and a and a and a better leader. I wouldn’t trade any of it for For a second. And it was hard. Okay. But I wouldn’t I wouldn’t trade any of it for for a second.

James [00:22:23]:

Interesting. Tell me about let’s go back to the principles that you had on your wall. You hung them up. Right?

Scott McGohan [00:22:30]:

Yeah. Well, actually, we had our we had our workforce do it. So we sat down and said, you know, hey. You know, who are we? So we had, like, family. You know, we’re a family. Okay. Where we’re teamwork. We’re about, integrity doing the right thing.

Scott McGohan [00:22:45]:

We’re about communication, and we verbalize those all the time. But Back then, I just I didn’t exhibit those at all.

James [00:22:54]:

Oh, so the company put them together. You slapped them on your wall, which didn’t follow them.

Scott McGohan [00:23:00]:

Correct.

James [00:23:00]:

Yep. Interesting. Oh, that is so interesting. Alright. So then you made the shift. You made the change. Let’s go to the coach. How did you find a coach to help you with that?

Scott McGohan [00:23:12]:

Yeah. You know, my dad knew somebody that kind of knew somebody, and and I just kinda connected with him. And And he asked me the 1st time we we we got together. He said, what do you value? And this is really bad, and I’m super embarrassed by this. But it was all material stuff.

James [00:23:28]:

Oh, interesting.

Scott McGohan [00:23:29]:

And I wrote him down, and he was I mean, my family was in there, but it wasn’t my first thought.

James [00:23:34]:

Okay.

Scott McGohan [00:23:34]:

It’s kinda like maybe in the middle.

James [00:23:37]:

Boat, house. Yeah. I think my kid is in there somewhere. Okay.

Scott McGohan [00:23:41]:

And he was just like, man, this is messed up. I’m like, what’s wrong? So, like, I didn’t I I didn’t know. Oh. I just, you know, we don’t learn that growing up. No. We just don’t. We you know, I look at I look at somebody and say I like what they have. I want it.

Scott McGohan [00:23:56]:

So what is it gonna take to get it? And, unfortunately, what we don’t understand is when we get it, There’s some shenanigans along the way. And I created, as you said, like, there was a wake. Alright. So

James [00:24:10]:

Interesting. It is so it’s so interesting because I feel like it’s somewhat opposing ideals. Because we’re told by all the gurus more or less to find a goal and move towards that goal. Focus on that goal, the one thing kind of thing. Push, push, push. But then there’s obviously gonna be fallout from anything, opportunity cost, whatever, from going towards that goal. And I think it’s safe to say you’re one of the first people that I’ve ever talked to that actually talked about the results of that week.

Scott McGohan [00:24:43]:

Oh, yeah.

James [00:24:44]:

But but you can’t say don’t go for your goal.

Scott McGohan [00:24:48]:

Correct.

James [00:24:48]:

I suppose what you’re saying is find more higher value goals, not necessarily monetarily. But

Scott McGohan [00:24:55]:

Yeah. It’s it’s really based on It’s, you know, it’s like what Simon Sinek talks about the why. Mhmm. You know, why we do what we do. And the the big thing for me because I’ve certainly seen a lot of people that behave like the way I used to, and they certainly had a lot more than I have. And if I use that as a measuring stick, my pillow is very hard at night.

James [00:25:21]:

Alright. Fair.

Scott McGohan [00:25:22]:

Okay. And then what I want is I want a soft pillow. Now I’m I’m gonna make a ton of mistakes, but I wanna you you know, the good book teaches us to love our neighbor as ourself, Or the golden rule to do unto others as we would do unto ourselves. And I believe the problem with a lot of leaders is You can’t be kind to others until you can begin to be kind to yourself.

James [00:25:44]:

Totally fair.

Scott McGohan [00:25:45]:

You can’t encourage others unless you encourage yourself.

James [00:25:48]:

Mhmm. And if

Scott McGohan [00:25:49]:

you don’t love yourself, not in a egotistical way, then humanity doesn’t have a shot. Agreed. And So it’s unwrapping all of that and unpacking all of that, and the goals and aspirations, they’re they’re they’re they’re different. To be to be honest with you, I think they’re a lot more noble, and they’re a lot more authentic.

James [00:26:08]:

Alright. Interesting. Tell me, you must have stumbled along the way. I imagine you get this coach. You tell him what you value. The coach is like, well, you’re crazy. We got some work cut out here. There must have been some stumbles along the way where you’re like, hey, coach.

James [00:26:23]:

I bought a Ferrari. What’s up?

Scott McGohan [00:26:24]:

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, big time. Done that 100%. Alright. And, you know, the the you know, I’m a big a big fan of, like, progress, not perfection. Okay. And, you know, just as long as as, I always say, you know, just try to put together a good decision sandwich.

Scott McGohan [00:26:44]:

Like, put 2 good decisions together before you make a bad one. We’re all we’re all gonna make them. And, Because when you know, if if you’re like me, when I made my change, there was a bunch of naysayers out there. Like, that guy’s not gonna change. I’m sure Victoria was that way. Like, this guy’s a A freaking mess. He’s not gonna make it.

James [00:27:03]:

Well, she must have had some belief in something to stick around.

Scott McGohan [00:27:06]:

I I think so. And then there you get naysayers, bystanders, and victims, People that won’t believe in you. And, your job is not to, like, do that for that. You should do it for yourself and not for other people. But, yeah, it’s hard work. But at the end of the day, man, it is it is worth it. It is absolutely truly worth it.

James [00:27:25]:

So I mentioned there’s a a weight that’s lifted then because you’re no longer trying to get the next biz big thing or keep up with the Joneses kind of thing. There’s a freedom in less, I suppose. Right?

Scott McGohan [00:27:37]:

Yeah. And then what’s even uncanny is success comes faster And higher.

James [00:27:46]:

Alright.

Scott McGohan [00:27:46]:

Because you’re out of the way. What you realize is you were actually In the way of that success, because your ego and I’m talking about me. Your ego was so big, you had to be wrapped around it. And you thought you were kind of maybe oil to that machine, and you weren’t. You were a wrench That clogged up that machine and broke it all the freaking time.

James [00:28:10]:

Oh, interesting.

Scott McGohan [00:28:12]:

And, yeah. It just life just gets easier. Better.

James [00:28:17]:

Faster. So after you make this change, Victoria sticks around. Were there other people, other employees, or even your wife, kids, whatever that came to you and said, hey. I noticed the change for the better.

Scott McGohan [00:28:29]:

Oh, 100%. Yeah. Even my kids, You know, to and they’re they’re over now. They’re 34 and 31, but, they saw and there’s a lot of stories in the book about, You know, about my son and my daughter and the crazy stuff I used to do and, I mean, just nutty.

James [00:28:48]:

Okay. Crazy stuff with work?

Scott McGohan [00:28:50]:

Oh, yeah. With work, you know, just, you know, work 80 80, 90 hours a week, and then I’m just buying stuff. Right? I was like, well, that’s what love that’s what love is, is buying them stuff. Well, that that isn’t what love was to them. You know? Love was maybe going to a soccer game or watching her cheer at a football game, and and all of that was just Foreign. I I just I I could never see it because my ego was that big.

James [00:29:15]:

Alright. So I guess I talk a little bit about, in one of my books, the no one can do it like I do it, where you get a little bit of ego where people I mean, business owners, this is a thing. There has to be some form of ego, I imagine, with just about any business owner because you’re going out there saying that you can do a better job than just getting the job. So I imagine you have this feeling that no one can do this like I can do it, so I’m the one that has to do it. But then that there’s only 24 hours in a day, and you have to in order to do it, you have to take that time, which means that that’s taken away from time with your kids.

Scott McGohan [00:29:52]:

You know,

James [00:29:52]:

at the soccer game because you’re busting tail at work for the better or not, I guess, could could be RDB the way. Yep. Alright. Tell me, so over the course of time, as you get this coach, how does the company do?

Scott McGohan [00:30:10]:

You know, the, I mean, the company and it it probably begins on, like, my dad’s investment philosophy is, hey. We’re not gonna invest in each We’re gonna invest in our customers. So they need resources. We’re gonna buy them. We need more employees to help them. That’s what we’re gonna do. And that was a really good position for us to be in is, hey, our shareholders are our customers. When we invest in them, they’ll stay with us.

Scott McGohan [00:30:38]:

So that was a mindset that we just locked on to.

James [00:30:41]:

Alright. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? How are you investing in your customers?

Scott McGohan [00:30:45]:

You you know, it’s like in regards to, you know at at least in our role, what they do is the government has massive compliance elements that our customers have to deal with. Mhmm. Forms and paperwork and and, you know, human resources. All they wanna do is hire and retain a workforce, But they’re hurt by, you know, paperwork. So, hey, what what if we just say, hey, we’ll just remove that paperwork from you. So we’ll bring inside resource. We’ll just do it for you. Oh, wow.

Scott McGohan [00:31:10]:

We’ll handle the compliance work. We’ll handle all the communication work, so benefit structure. We have a full blown studio in our back, you know, the back of our building, we’ll do videos for your workforce. We’ll talk about their benefits. Anything that stops them from getting people, keeping people, and growing profitably, We’re willing to say, we’ll do that for you.

James [00:31:30]:

Oh, interesting. Okay.

Scott McGohan [00:31:31]:

And the competition doesn’t have that mindset. So it’s like, well, do you do this, this, and that? And they’re like, no. We don’t do And I was like, well, then that’s that’s it. So that’s it’s worked for, you know, 50 years. We’ll we’ll keep doing it.

James [00:31:43]:

Yeah. That is that is fascinating right there. Because I I, with people all over the country, there are time every time I open the mailbox, there’s a pile of paper from different states and stuff like that. And I joked with the bookkeeper. I’m like, I think the some of these people at the state, individual states feel like all we have to do as business owners is just fill out paperwork. Oh, yeah. That’s all we wanna do. Because I feel like this could be done simpler.

James [00:32:10]:

One, I shouldn’t have to go to the mailbox. I should go to my email inbox. But Right. Many states insist on mail, which that alone is clunky. It’s just this huge just, I guess constant annoyance of paperwork just as barrage. So I could see how that would be a huge benefit. Because I end up having to hire a bookkeeper and just say, take this pile of paper and just do what needs to be done. It’s tough.

James [00:32:41]:

Oh, you’re muted for a second.

Scott McGohan [00:32:45]:

HR wears they wear, like, 10 hats. Yeah. And even what we do, they don’t they don’t even wanna do that.

James [00:32:52]:

Oh, wow. Okay.

Scott McGohan [00:32:53]:

You know, there’s other things they’d rather be doing. So, like, we’ll we’ll say, hey. What do you love to do? Imagine if you will, imagine if you didn’t have to do this part of your job, what else would you do? And like, I’d, you know, I’d go recruit. I was like, well, great. Then let us just take that part of your job from you. We’ll do it. So you can go do it. You can go do and do what you love.

James [00:33:12]:

Mhmm.

Scott McGohan [00:33:13]:

And sometimes, that works out really well, and, you know, maybe sometimes not so well. We’re not perfect.

James [00:33:18]:

Sure. No company is. No person is. Yeah. Fair. Totally fair. Tell me about the book just writing it. What was the inspiration for actually putting pen to paper or keys fingers to keyboard?

Scott McGohan [00:33:31]:

Yeah. It’s like a really good friend of mine, and we were just meeting for a long time. And as he was just kind of thinking about, hey. What’s next in his life, and, what does purpose look like? And then after we met, probably 3 or 4, he goes, you should write a book. I’m like, I don’t I can’t sit still for 10 minutes. What are you talking about? And I you know, I’ve said life’s a wonderful teacher, and she rarely gets an apple on her desk. So the book is really around where I’ve made A lot of mistakes in my life, and what that’s taught me I’ve heard a lot of and I don’t wanna pick on academia, but I’ve heard a lot of people know Culture and organizational structure. And in the back of my mind, where a lot of people I’m like, have you ever done it? Because it because if you haven’t done it, You probably shouldn’t teach it.

Scott McGohan [00:34:19]:

Now Air. Both different. I could get in trouble for saying that, but No. You’re not wrong. You’re Yeah.

James [00:34:25]:

Absolutely right.

Scott McGohan [00:34:26]:

And the reason why I wrote it is because, like, I’ve done it. I moved from 7 employees to 500 people. I’ve gone through some massive structural changes. Culture is, the most important thing in my role as CEO. That that that is at the tip of the spear. Mhmm. And if I can help people, you know, redeem and restore their culture and change it and shift it, then, that’d be great. So that was really the purpose of the book.

James [00:34:55]:

Awesome. And how long ago did you publish it?

Scott McGohan [00:34:59]:

It came out in, Gosh. September? August?

James [00:35:04]:

Okay. Yeah.

Scott McGohan [00:35:05]:

Something like that. It’s a it’s a

James [00:35:06]:

book launch. 23, so so pretty recent. Yeah. Yeah.

Scott McGohan [00:35:09]:

Alright.

James [00:35:09]:

Yep. So the book is culture is an inside job, and where can people find the book? Just to

Scott McGohan [00:35:14]:

Give the Amazon.

James [00:35:15]:

Plug here. Right? Yep. Yeah. The book place. There we go. The book place. Let’s dig into culture a little bit, company culture. When I first met this woman, she started talking about company culture, and I’m like, what are you talking about? And she explained it, and then I thought, okay.

James [00:35:32]:

You may be onto something there. But I didn’t know. She’s like, what is your company culture like? I remember her asking me a question that was more or less that. And I was trying to think, boy, I don’t know. And then she said, well, if you had if your employees had to describe your company culture in 1 word or 3 words, what would they say? And I was dumbfounded because that my first thought is, they’d say it was awesome. And she’s like, would they? Like, probably not. I don’t know. So Tell me how you figure out because I’m always if you wanna go somewhere, you gotta figure out where you are, then figure out your destination.

James [00:36:04]:

We can figure out the path later. How do you figure out what your company culture is now at this moment in time?

Scott McGohan [00:36:12]:

Yeah. I mean, it takes it it takes a lot of time. You have a lot of people that my only recommendation to companies is, like, don’t hire a consultant to tell you what your culture is.

James [00:36:23]:

Okay.

Scott McGohan [00:36:24]:

Now you can have them help you organize, but the words of your culture should come from your workforce. Okay. And then you find people and you have them inside your company. There’s people that you trust, that you would that you would hand your house keys, your car keys, and your bank account information to. You need 2 or 3 of those people. Then you need maybe 1 or 2 people that you don’t trust at all. Like then they’re late. They show up.

Scott McGohan [00:36:51]:

They’re they’re probably gonna talk behind their backs. So those are the naysayers, the bystanders, and the victims.

James [00:36:56]:

Okay. Did you say you need those or you just have those.

Scott McGohan [00:36:59]:

You need them for feedback because they’re probably willing to tell you the truth more than the people that, that you trust.

James [00:37:04]:

Oh, Interesting. Okay.

Scott McGohan [00:37:06]:

And you need both sides. And then you act you actually have those people go out and ask the employees those questions. So if you had to if if you had to describe McGowan Bravebender to someone for the first time, how how would you describe the organization? And there’s there’s 2 points points of it. The first point is what they would say honestly, in truth. The 2nd part is what you want them to say, and there’s the gap. Alright. Job as a leader is you gotta fill that gap. And then as a leader too, as an owner, you can’t be I I had 1 guy said, I want a great culture.

Scott McGohan [00:37:44]:

Like, what does a great culture look Like, you know, and, like, back to the same thing, ping pong tables. And I’m like, well, I’ve had to if I had to walk out and ask your workforce, what kind of guy are you? They’d say, well, they’d say I’m a I’m a jerk because I’m tough. And I was, like, okay. Well, then I can’t we we we can’t go out and tell everyone that we wanna be great when you’re not even good. Fair? Yeah. And I’m, like, what what if we just stood in front of the workforce and just said, hey, I just I just wanna be better. Like, that’s a lot more honest than saying I wanna be great. Good grades impossible in their eyes.

Scott McGohan [00:38:15]:

Does that make sense?

James [00:38:16]:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Scott McGohan [00:38:17]:

So Yeah.

James [00:38:18]:

Because they’re thinking that is way too far away from where you are now.

Scott McGohan [00:38:21]:

Yeah. Way too far away. And how do you just get to not their truth, not your truth, but how do you get to the truth in your organization?

James [00:38:29]:

Mhmm.

Scott McGohan [00:38:29]:

Regards to where you are today. And then you you then you just build the vision around, you know, who I wanna be, who I want the organization to be, and And, it’s fun. It’s a blast.

James [00:38:40]:

Yeah. I have phoned since, since I had this conversation with a woman, I was more in tune to even know that it existed. That company culture was a thing that I was oblivious to it before. And I paid attention to it, And it I learned, I guess, mistakes. I guess that’s how you learn. Right? By making some bad hires, Even 1 bad hire. It’s so interesting. It was it was interesting kinda outsider looking in even though it was my own company, so it wasn’t the greatest Experiment in the world.

James [00:39:13]:

It was an expensive one. Hiring 1 bad hire caused just this gray cloud to go over the whole company. I remember that it was probably neighborhood of 8 years ago. One bad hire, and it just changed everything in a very negative light. Stuff went awry just with that one bad hire. And we needed someone fast. She was right there. I was like, ah, you can do the job.

James [00:39:37]:

It’s great. So it wasn’t intentional to put this bad person in there.

Scott McGohan [00:39:41]:

Right.

James [00:39:41]:

But holy cow did that make a that made some challenges. And we got rid of her, but I bet it took us 2 years to recover from that after she was gone.

Scott McGohan [00:39:51]:

Yeah. I mean, it’s it it can be very, very expensive. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And you know what’s great about McGraw and Brave Hunter today is we don’t have to weed out the bad people. Our workforce does.

James [00:40:04]:

Oh, so tell me how they do that.

Scott McGohan [00:40:06]:

They’ll do it. Like, well, we have these what we call it, like, our court truce. So and I believe most leaders should be Probably your number one job is you need to be an amazing storyteller.

James [00:40:17]:

Mhmm.

Scott McGohan [00:40:18]:

You can’t tell a story. You probably shouldn’t leave.

James [00:40:20]:

Fair. Totally fair. Love it.

Scott McGohan [00:40:23]:

And then if you’re a storyteller, you’re telling stories in your organization about people that are exhibiting the core truths of your organization. Now the cool thing about telling a story is Most people wanna be in a story. So they hear a story, and they’re like, I’m gonna be in the next chapter, so I’m gonna do the same thing. I’m gonna see if I can nudge my way into that chapter. But then there’s people in the building that understand, like, our core truths. And if somebody, like, goes off, you know, goes off Kind of the grid. They’ll say that’s not the way we do things around here. This isn’t gonna work.

Scott McGohan [00:40:55]:

And, HR is not notified immediately. Right. The people actually they and now we’re an ESOP, so everyone’s an owner. So now everybody understands. Hey. This is my company.

James [00:41:06]:

Oh, they have a vested interest.

Scott McGohan [00:41:07]:

Yeah. I’m ready to go. Like Alright. You know, like, we had, like, let’s see, order a bunch of lunches. And someone says, well, 5 people didn’t show up. $10 a lunch. A big deal? $50. I’m like, hold on a second.

Scott McGohan [00:41:18]:

You know what it cost to make $50? It’s not 50 they’ll go $50. I’m like, no. No. No.

James [00:41:22]:

No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

James [00:41:24]:

No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

James [00:41:24]:

No.

Scott McGohan [00:41:24]:

No. No. Oh, no.

James [00:41:25]:

That’s what the ad executives would like you to believe. Right?

Scott McGohan [00:41:28]:

Yeah. I mean, so if you make 10% margin, you’re gonna make $500 to pay the $50. What? I’m like, oh, yeah. You do that math every day. You just do it differently. Gas station, grocery store, like, work. A business is just like a human being, Behaves the same way, and you get people that understand that. They’ll do, like, they’ll do really brave, great things.

James [00:41:49]:

Interesting. I love it. That is pretty clever. So now you’ve come to the point where you’re essentially actually a step or two away from retirement. And you look back at all that you’ve accomplished over the years. Tell me, what is the thing that stands out that you’re most proud of?

Scott McGohan [00:42:09]:

Golly. I mean, obviously, I’ve been married 36 years, and my wife’s my best friend.

James [00:42:15]:

Wow. Congrats on that. Yeah. That’s impressive.

Scott McGohan [00:42:18]:

Yep. 34 year old daughter, 2 grandkids. We shoulda had him a first on this planet. This planet would be really nice if we had grandkids first. 31 year old son is a filmmaker, so probably, gratefully today that my answer would be more around what I have in regards to my relationships.

James [00:42:36]:

Okay.

Scott McGohan [00:42:38]:

But, you know, probably in 2010 when the Affordable Care Act was passed, when the government basically said, hey. I think we want your job. What are we gonna do next? Is retooling this organization, tearing

James [00:42:49]:

it down,

Scott McGohan [00:42:49]:

tearing it down to the nubs, and just say, hey. We’re gonna we’re gonna start all over. And who were we gonna be, with no plan, no strategy, no book, no manual, no podcast to listen to. Right. Let’s just

James [00:43:02]:

2010 was a different time.

Scott McGohan [00:43:04]:

Yeah. We’re just gonna get mulch underneath our fingernails, and we’re gonna restore it. And we were brave enough to do it, and we never looked back, and it just took off like a rocket.

James [00:43:15]:

So tell me about that. I guess, what part of the business did that go after? Because are you guy I mentioned you go through or work with insurance companies, or

Scott McGohan [00:43:25]:

We do.

James [00:43:25]:

Tell me about the foundation there.

Scott McGohan [00:43:27]:

Yeah. And I think the even, you know, when the Affordable Care Act was passed, everybody that did what we did, like an insurance broker, The perception was the government’s just gonna take that over. So we’re gonna have Medicare for all.

James [00:43:39]:

Okay. Gotcha.

Scott McGohan [00:43:40]:

This. And then our mindset was, yeah, we could run scared. And trust me, there are days when I wanted to.

James [00:43:48]:

Oh, I get it.

Scott McGohan [00:43:49]:

Or we could say our customers are gonna need us now more than ever because of what you said is the fact that the the government doesn’t do a great job of taking care of business. No. They just shove more paperwork down our throats, and Mhmm. And we knew if even if the government did that, our customers would need our help. So how can we help them? How do we help them? And we knew if we help them, their our revenue, it would be okay. Yeah. We’d be okay. We’d be okay.

Scott McGohan [00:44:16]:

People would pay us for that. They’d take care of us. There’d be confidence inside of that. And, I I don’t think it was immature. I think it was brave, and, It was fun. I don’t wanna go back to those days, but it was it was fun. Starting all over was fun.

James [00:44:33]:

So where tell me about that time in relation to when Victoria came to you. Was that before or after?

Scott McGohan [00:44:39]:

Oh, that was well, Victoria came to me twenty 22 years ago.

James [00:44:43]:

Okay.

Scott McGohan [00:44:44]:

So the Affordable Care Act was passed in 2010, so that was

James [00:44:47]:

what the first step. Okay.

Scott McGohan [00:44:49]:

Yeah. 10 years after. Yep. Okay. So that was that was, like, my 1st year CEO. That was my number one job as the government’s gonna take over our business, so good luck. Retool this place. And

James [00:44:59]:

So is that one of those where you get that email and you’re like, wait. What am I reading?

Scott McGohan [00:45:02]:

Yeah. What am I doing? I don’t wanna do this right now. But, we had a lot of fun. Lot of

James [00:45:08]:

Yeah. So and I imagine some of your employees were scared when they see that.

Scott McGohan [00:45:14]:

Yeah. I remember I wrote the email to the workforce that night, March of 2 2010 is many of you are probably nervous whether we’re gonna have a job or not. And I’m telling you, if we take care of our customers and we care about each other, We’re gonna be fine. Yeah. It will be different. And the a culture, it’s, like, it’s number one job is to adapt to change.

James [00:45:36]:

That is it. That’s it. That’s what Darwin said. Right? Not the strongest, not the smartest. Those who can adapt best to change.

Scott McGohan [00:45:43]:

I mean, like, one of our values to be family. Right? So I’m in this meeting, me, when this new hire, and I said, well, we’re about family. She kinda, like like, her head, like, twitched. And I go, what’s that all about? She’s, oh, I’m sorry. I’m like, no. You twitch for a reason. Like, I want it like, what’s that all about?

James [00:45:57]:

Mhmm. And

Scott McGohan [00:45:58]:

she said, well, to be honest with you, I have a family, and I don’t want another one. I go, oh, that’s helpful. She goes, what do you mean? I’m like, I think we need to be more specific. She goes, that would be helpful. I’m like, hey. You taught me something today. So what I think of family, what you think of family, captain obvious just landed in the room, and your definition is different than mine.

James [00:46:18]:

Sure. Fair. Totally fair.

Scott McGohan [00:46:20]:

So in COVID, what we did is we took those 5 values, and we threw them out the window. Oh. And we restated all of them. We asked our generation, like, Our younger force, like, what’s important to you? So they came back with words like grit, bravery, courage, determine it, like, contemporary language. Like, one of our values was integrity. You should not have integrity as a company value. That’s a table stake. You don’t get to exist unless you have integrity.

Scott McGohan [00:46:46]:

And if you do without it, then I don’t wanna know you.

James [00:46:50]:

Yeah. Fair. So Totally fair.

Scott McGohan [00:46:52]:

They should be really representative of of your workforce by generation. And they’ve got the language. You just have to draw it out

James [00:47:00]:

of them. Interesting. So it’s kind of, coincidental or ironic, I suppose, that they’re talking about grit. And one of your challenges before was when you’re going after the stuff, you could probably argue pretty strongly that you were using grit to achieve whatever it is that you were after.

Scott McGohan [00:47:20]:

Right.

James [00:47:21]:

So I imagine there well, I guess, you have to tell me, I guess. How was their definition different than that?

Scott McGohan [00:47:28]:

Well, like, our number one core truth is cultivating a culture of care. So caring about people. Oh, okay. I can have grit As long as I care. Okay. I’m gonna care about the people around me. I’m gonna care about the customer on the other end. I’m gonna care about the entire PVC pipe of processes.

Scott McGohan [00:47:45]:

Not gonna have grit and not get not care.

James [00:47:48]:

Okay.

Scott McGohan [00:47:49]:

And that comes with consequences. But those consequences breach our, like, code of ethics, our

James [00:47:56]:

culture. Interesting. Alright. Because then they see that and like, oh, you don’t have your best interest in mind.

Scott McGohan [00:48:02]:

Right.

James [00:48:03]:

I have been told that is why I relate to this a lot is I’ve been told by people, like, it doesn’t they don’t say that it doesn’t seem like you care. They say you don’t care. And in my mind, I’m like, I totally care because if I didn’t care, no one would stay. So it’s interesting how that perception from an employer or group of employees or even clients or vendors. When inside, you feel like, I’m pretty sure I care because I need to, versus their perception, I suppose, based on your actions. Maybe you didn’t seem like you care. Maybe you didn’t say that you cared. Yep.

James [00:48:38]:

Changes, their perception or alters their perception to not be in your favor. Even though you believe in the back of your mind, like, I feel like I’m doing the stuff. I’m paying you. All that jazz. But

Scott McGohan [00:48:51]:

Oh, yeah. Yep. That can get wonky too. You know what? I heard someone tell me this in a meeting one time, and we do it all the time now, is when somebody would say something like that to me, I would say back to them, you didn’t say this, But this is what I heard. Oh. So imagine if we were in that conversation and out of you, I would say, you didn’t say this, but what I heard is You don’t think I care about you?

James [00:49:16]:

Alright.

Scott McGohan [00:49:17]:

Now they’d say, oh, I didn’t say that. I was okay. Well, then what did you say? And there’s a couple things that happen there is the truth normally starts to float to the surface. Okay. Right? And or if you can have somebody completely backtrack, it’s like, don’t backtrack. Right. Right. Don’t don’t act.

James [00:49:32]:

You meant something.

Scott McGohan [00:49:33]:

Big time. Don’t put a icing on this because we all know what it tastes like. Just Let’s just talk about it. Mhmm. And, it’s that quest for the truth. What is the truth, that’s super healthy? I mean, I I probably made 5 mistakes today. I’ll probably make 5 more before I go to bed. Who knows? I mean, we all make them.

James [00:49:53]:

Yeah. That’s how you learn. Right? Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I was joking with well, semi joking. With an employee of mine this morning, and because we’re getting inundated with problems. The email was down and just stupid stuff, stuff that happens.

James [00:50:08]:

Every business. It’s just stuff. And I’m like, if we didn’t have problems, we would create them on our own. Just keep the day exciting. So it’s not a bad thing that we have these problems. These are just little challenges that we have to get over, move on with their life, and be happy when we lay down finally at the end of the day that we accomplished some stuff and made the world a better place. That’s our job. Oh, yeah.

James [00:50:30]:

That’s it. But if it was easy, everyone would do it. And if it was easy, I guess, I don’t see myself laying watching Netflix or something like that all day, and then going to bed thinking, I really accomplished a lot today.

Scott McGohan [00:50:45]:

Oh, yeah. 100%.

James [00:50:47]:

So you need those challenges to occur.

Scott McGohan [00:50:49]:

But there’s a lot of leaders. You say that. There’s a lot of leaders that are addicted to chaos. Oh, yeah. They don’t know how to thrive unless it’s messed up. And what happens is when everything’s going really good, peace of mind is so foreign to them. And whether they know it or not, they will screw something up just to fix it because they need to

James [00:51:09]:

fix stuff.

Scott McGohan [00:51:10]:

Does that make sense?

James [00:51:11]:

Absolutely.

Scott McGohan [00:51:12]:

And that’s a really that’s a warped sense, and I’ve seen it a 100 times.

James [00:51:18]:

Were the people aware? Were those leaders aware of that?

Scott McGohan [00:51:22]:

No. No. But no one has the courage to tell them. Like, you know, they walk around and they’ll meet with Peep. Like, you know, when I walk around the building, my, I am called to be in relationships with the, with, with the people, not in their role. So if I walked around and I saw them, why are you doing it that way? That’s not the way we did it back in the day. And then I would explain to them how we did it back in the day. And And then they would go back and doing it back in the day, and their manager would be like, why are you doing that? It’s like, woah.

Scott McGohan [00:51:48]:

I was talking to Scott, and this is the way he used to do it. That is so freaking destructive. It is just wonky and it is just really destructive, but I see a lot of leaders that’ll wanna be in someone’s role. And that’s not your job. Your job is to be in relationship with those people. It’s the manager’s job to be inside their roles. That makes sense?

James [00:52:10]:

Absolutely. Yeah. Interesting. So we don’t have a ton of time here, Scott. I want to leave people with some takeaways here. So Veer, let’s just talk about small business when you’re first starting out. What is something that a small business owner or manager leader, I guess, depending upon their role, can look forward to figure out or ask to figure out what their company culture is right now?

Scott McGohan [00:52:32]:

Great question. I would say I would say before you ask that question, Be brave enough to answer it yourself. What do you want your culture to be like? Oh. And be super brave about it. Don’t be embarrassed about, well, people are gonna think that’s Stupid or whatever. Be super brave about it. Alright. Great point.

Scott McGohan [00:52:53]:

And then you go back out, and then you ask the questions in regards to if you had to explain to some of a a stranger what it’s like to work here, What would you say? In complete transparency and honesty, what would you say?

James [00:53:07]:

Oh, that is a phenomenal question.

Scott McGohan [00:53:09]:

And then you would come back to If you worked here and you met a stranger and someone said you work at McGowan and Braybinder, what would you want to tell them? What it was like? And it’s that gap. You need

James [00:53:21]:

to start

Scott McGohan [00:53:22]:

filling that gap, filling that gap.

James [00:53:24]:

So you’re asking the employees what they would like to say?

Scott McGohan [00:53:27]:

Correct. Okay. It would say. Alright. Versus what they would like to say.

James [00:53:33]:

Interesting. That is incredible right there. That was worth it right there for all the listeners. Right?

Scott McGohan [00:53:38]:

There you go.

James [00:53:40]:

Perfect. Cool. Well, Scott, I really appreciate you being on the show.

Scott McGohan [00:53:44]:

Well, thanks for having me.

James [00:53:45]:

Yeah. Tell me, where can people find you? If you wanna get in touch with you or your company.

Scott McGohan [00:53:51]:

Yeah. I’m on LinkedIn, on Twitter. I’m on Instagram. My name is spelled m c g o h a n, Not w a n. And there’s only, like, 10 h a n’s in the in the country. So, Scott McGowan. Okay. And then at mcgowanbraibender, or scottmcone@gmail.

Scott McGohan [00:54:11]:

And love to hear from people.

James [00:54:12]:

Awesome. And then the book, Culture is an Inside Job. Yep. That can be found on Amazon, you said?

Scott McGohan [00:54:19]:

Yep. That’s correct.

James [00:54:21]:

Awesome. I love it. Thank you so much for being on the show, Scott.

Scott McGohan [00:54:24]:

Well, hey. Thanks for having me. I really I enjoyed it.

James [00:54:26]:

Yeah. This is fun. I learned

Scott McGohan [00:54:28]:

an incredible

James [00:54:28]:

amount, which I’m assuming that means that most of the listeners did as well. I was even taking notes, and that’s a rare thing. So I appreciate that. That’s awesome.

Scott McGohan [00:54:38]:

I appreciate your time very much.

James [00:54:40]:

This has been Authentic Business Adventures, the business program that brings you the struggle stories and triumphant successes of business owners across the land. We’re locally underwritten by the Bank of Sun Prairie. If you’re listening or watching this on the web, if you could do us a huge favor, subscribe, give us a big old thumbs up, comment, and, of course, most importantly, share it with all of your friends, especially those entrepreneurs that may have a company culture that isn’t the greatest or could use a little nudge in the right direction. My name is James Kademan, and Authentic Business Adventures is brought to you by Calls on Call, offering call answering and reception services for service businesses across the country on the web at calls on call.com. And, of course, the Bold Business Book, book for the entrepreneur in all of us, available wherever fine books are sold. We’d We’d like to thank you, our wonderful listeners, as well as our guest, Scott McGowan of McGowan Braub Bender. And, Scott, tell me that book name one more time.

Scott McGohan [00:55:31]:

Culture is an inside job.

James [00:55:33]:

You can’t go wrong with that. I love it. Past episodes can be fun morning, noon, and night. The podcast link Found at draw in customers.com. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next week. I want you to stay awesome. If if you do nothing else, enjoy your business.

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