Podcast: Play in new window | Download (Duration: 53:56 — 94.6MB)
Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | iHeartRadio | Email | RSS | More
Zak Koga – Karben4 Brewing
[00:00:02]
You have found Authentic Business Adventures, the
business program that brings you
[00:00:06]
the struggles stories and triumphant
successes of business owners across
[00:00:09]
the land. Coming to you
from the great Karben4 Brewery.
[00:00:13]
I’m excited here we have Zach Koga
[00:00:16]
the co-owner of Karben4.
How are you doing today?
[00:00:19]
I’m doing well.
Doing well.
[00:00:20]
Another week.
Yeah, it’s Monday.
[00:00:23]
Yes.
That’s how we owners do it here.
[00:00:25]
This is a cool space you got here.
Thank you.
[00:00:27]
So let’s start out with how
long have you been here?
[00:00:30]
We are in our ninth year.
[00:00:32]
So we turned, we got eight full years,
[00:00:35]
technically December 28th of 2020.
[00:00:38]
So we going into our ninth year here.
Wow.
[00:00:40]
And yeah.
[00:00:43]
Many more to come.
All right.
[00:00:44]
The super cool.
So you was this the first spot?
[00:00:47]
Or did you relocate?
No, this was our first spot.
[00:00:49]
We started here.
[00:00:51]
Ale Asylum was here from about somewhere
[00:00:53]
in 2006 until late summer,
roughly late summer, fall
[00:00:59]
of twenty.
Oh wait 2012.
[00:01:02]
OK, and then we
yeah we moved in, our lease started October
[00:01:06]
of 2012 and we were open
by the end of the year so that
[00:01:10]
was almost almost three
full months to get us open.
[00:01:12]
But that’s pretty fast.
[00:01:13]
I was gonna say that’s crazy fast.
Yeah.
[00:01:15]
We, we were working 100 hour weeks.
Just going straight.
[00:01:18]
Sure.
Every day, every night
[00:01:20]
to get open and and we had the benefit
of Ale Asylum being here before us so
[00:01:24]
a lot of, a lot of infrastructure
[00:01:25]
things were already here.
All right.
[00:01:27]
Drainage, water, boiler, stuff.
[00:01:29]
So it was more
[00:01:31]
rearranging our first equipment setup
[00:01:34]
mixed with some things we bought from them
versus things we brought in and then in
[00:01:37]
the tap room,
we, they had a functioning taproom here.
[00:01:41]
We ended up kind of gutting it.
[00:01:43]
So we went a little further
than we thought we would.
[00:01:45]
But but but there was
already half of the bar.
[00:01:50]
Yeah.
Was here already plumbing things.
[00:01:52]
A lot of things were here.
[00:01:53]
So that helped us get to get
to market pretty quickly.
[00:01:56]
Is that what you end up
choosing this space or were you.
[00:01:59]
Yeah.
deliberating other spaces.
[00:02:00]
Yeah.
We, we were yes.
[00:02:03]
At the end of the day that’s why we
ended up in this space in Madison.
[00:02:08]
We were talking about how to start
a brewery for a couple of years.
[00:02:13]
My brother is really what brings
me into the beer business.
[00:02:15]
I am an engineer by training
and background and
[00:02:19]
my brother was was brewing beer out
Montana for several years as a family.
[00:02:24]
We were talking about how to get a brewery
[00:02:26]
going for ourselves, for him, more and
more focused for him and for his career.
[00:02:30]
And and then as that discussion got more
real, I was getting kind of more involved,
[00:02:35]
looking at the business plan with him
and brought in some friends to help us.
[00:02:39]
And
[00:02:41]
and then Ryan
[00:02:44]
cold called Ale Asylum and just kind
[00:02:46]
of said, hey,
we’re looking to start up a brewery.
[00:02:49]
Madison’s definitely on our radar
because I had already lived here.
[00:02:51]
He was out in Montana.
[00:02:52]
And it’s a great, great city, great market
for craft beer, especially back then.
[00:02:56]
Yeah, almost ten years ago.
[00:02:57]
And
[00:02:59]
and we sort of struck a deal to say, hey,
[00:03:01]
I think there’s certain things that you’re
probably just trying to sell and they’d be
[00:03:03]
worth more if they stayed
put to both of us.
[00:03:05]
And so you knew Ale Asylum was leaving?
Yes.
[00:03:09]
OK, yeah, we were aware.
[00:03:10]
So I work for Findorf before
starting the brewery.
[00:03:12]
And so I was always very aware of
[00:03:14]
real estate development
and projects and things in town.
[00:03:16]
So I was I was aware that Ale Asylum was
looking to build a new space at the time.
[00:03:22]
I knew more about some other early plans
when they were looking at East Washington,
[00:03:27]
but that fell through before they ended
up out on the other side of the airport.
[00:03:30]
And and Ryan was really the one that had
the insight to say, hey,
[00:03:34]
they’re expanding and I bet they’re
going to try to sell some equipment.
[00:03:36]
And and it’s a lease space.
[00:03:38]
I know the landlord here and
[00:03:42]
and we just, you know,
put things together from there.
[00:03:45]
So when Ryan cold called them were they
just like, well, that’s good timing.
[00:03:49]
Yeah, I it was luck.
[00:03:51]
I mean, it it was it was good insight
[00:03:54]
and foresight by Ryan,
but it was also some luck because
[00:03:59]
I mean, I think, you know,
[00:04:00]
we get as a business owner,
you get solicited all day, every day,
[00:04:03]
24/7, in the mail, on the phone,
employees get harassed,
[00:04:08]
people pretending that they knew you from
high school and family you’ve never met.
[00:04:15]
So the fact that Otto,
just like actually took the call was was
[00:04:19]
lucky, I think,
just to actually get to the office.
[00:04:22]
And then he listened and it was I think
it was like, wow, that’s good timing.
[00:04:25]
Yeah.
Nice.
[00:04:26]
And was there ever any thought of like, hey,
[00:04:29]
I don’t want to help out
a competitor or anything like that?
[00:04:32]
Not not really.
[00:04:33]
I think there was some concern because we
[00:04:35]
had we had some conversation about, hey,
you’re going to change this, right?
[00:04:39]
You’re not just going
to totally rip us off.
[00:04:42]
And and we said absolutely we we we have
[00:04:46]
our own ideas about what we want to do
and what our brand is going to be like.
[00:04:49]
We’re definitely going to make changes.
[00:04:51]
So there was a little bit of discussion
[00:04:52]
of like, hey, you’re going to at least
kind of repaint and redecorate
[00:04:56]
and and make sure it’s not
confusion in the market about it being
[00:05:00]
an Ale Asylum affiliated company,
but over overwhelmingly, they were
[00:05:06]
real easy to work with and and friendly
[00:05:09]
and and we got through,
you know, we got through it. Nice that’s super cool.
[00:05:14]
Did you end up,
[00:05:15]
I guess, as far as their landlord goes,
was it complicated or was it easier?
[00:05:20]
Because you guys are a brewery’s landlord,
[00:05:22]
you have to get rid
of a bunch of stuff. The landlord
[00:05:23]
was it was that was
probably the easiest part.
[00:05:27]
I mean, he’s like, great.
[00:05:28]
And I don’t have any vacancy.
[00:05:30]
And at the same purpose.
[00:05:31]
And
[00:05:32]
he he probably did pretty well in the deal
[00:05:34]
because when Ale Asylum took it over,
I think it was much cheaper space.
[00:05:38]
It wasn’t really retail space and and so
them turning it into a brewery and having
[00:05:43]
the tap room put it and put it
in a different category, you know,
[00:05:47]
as hybrid retail rent instead of more
like East Side warehouse rent.
[00:05:52]
Right.
So I think he did OK on it.
[00:05:55]
And we certainly paid all
our bills along the way.
[00:05:57]
So we’ve we have a good relationship.
[00:05:59]
And it was very simple
to get through that part.
[00:06:02]
Cool.
I’m going to pause for a second.
[00:06:11]
Yes, just like you said.
[00:06:13]
Yeah,
[00:06:15]
so as far as the build and stuff like
[00:06:16]
that goes, I remember being
in Ellis Island and then coming in here
[00:06:20]
thinking this is just going to be
the same thing and it was way different.
[00:06:23]
Yeah, but still so cool.
[00:06:25]
I mean, Ellis Island back
in the day was cool.
[00:06:27]
And this is a cool place.
[00:06:29]
It’s interesting because I have
I for esthetic and I like it.
[00:06:34]
Yeah.
I feel the same way.
[00:06:36]
We’re we’re not
we’re not interior designers
[00:06:39]
and decorators by any
stretch of the imagination.
[00:06:41]
But we certainly developed
a point of view.
[00:06:44]
I think our approach coming
into the taproom was that we wanted it
[00:06:47]
to be a canvas that we got
to build the brand out on.
[00:06:51]
And one of our best friends, Tom,
[00:06:54]
was an early creative force in the company
and did all the paintings in the brewery.
[00:07:00]
And we wanted it to be a canvas for
[00:07:03]
his interpretation on our
beer brands as we were.
[00:07:06]
So we totally filled up
the space with his paintings.
[00:07:09]
Every time we would release a beer,
[00:07:10]
we’d release a painting with it
until we ran out of room, basically.
[00:07:13]
Wow.
[00:07:14]
And so that’s kind of help
bring it to life a little bit when we also
[00:07:18]
during covid use the opportunity
to repaint and clean some things up.
[00:07:22]
So right now,
it’s actually kind of a lighter palette
[00:07:24]
than it was when you first
opened a little darker.
[00:07:28]
But but that was the concept because
[00:07:31]
we probably could have done better
at an interior decorating side,
[00:07:35]
but we did what we could do
and it worked for a while.
[00:07:38]
Sure.
Hindsight.
[00:07:40]
So, yeah.
[00:07:41]
Now, do you remember being
really dark in here?
[00:07:43]
Yeah, I guess I didn’t necessarily
consider that a bad thing.
[00:07:46]
It was.
Yeah, it was.
[00:07:47]
I mean, it’s a bar taffer.
Yeah.
[00:07:50]
So that’s cool.
[00:07:52]
So tell me about how it’s been
working with your brother.
[00:07:55]
I guess it’s probably a safe place here.
Oh yeah.
[00:07:57]
We’re going with family
is going to be tough.
[00:08:00]
You know it is but not
he and I have not had I think those those
[00:08:07]
typical cliché family problems all
the time, not at a high level.
[00:08:11]
There’s certainly,
you know, you disagree on things or you’re
[00:08:15]
both tired or both grumpy and you get
into it on whatever the issue is.
[00:08:20]
But we’ve he and I have
[00:08:24]
it’s never been like that.
[00:08:26]
That kind of cliche problem.
[00:08:28]
That’s like we’re just going to never
talk again and not get over it.
[00:08:32]
Slimly.
We’ve been able yeah.
[00:08:34]
We’ve been able to separate
how tired or frustrated or whatever it is
[00:08:39]
with the problems and with
the issues versus each other.
[00:08:42]
We’ve we’ve always been able to
to keep those things kind of separate.
[00:08:46]
It’s definitely evolved our relationship
because we’re working together every day.
[00:08:49]
And instead of goofing off as brothers,
you know, and and when we go home and be
[00:08:53]
social, we’re getting
to do that separately.
[00:08:56]
So, you know, it’s certainly changed,
[00:08:59]
like how often we might just hang
out because we’re together a time.
[00:09:04]
But I think we both really value
all the time.
[00:09:08]
We got to spend together, too,
[00:09:09]
because we’re we’re just totally in tune
like everything with each other.
[00:09:13]
You know, we know each other inside out,
up and down at our best and at our worst.
[00:09:17]
And and we have each other’s back.
[00:09:18]
You know, we really
unequivocally support each other.
[00:09:22]
If you get a phone call at 10:00 or
[00:09:24]
something broke, we’re both
we’re both no questions asked.
[00:09:26]
We’ll work through the night,
fix it, whatever it is, we be done.
[00:09:29]
So
[00:09:30]
I think I think the way to survive that is
[00:09:33]
just to to never give up,
you know, on the problems.
[00:09:36]
And if you don’t do that,
[00:09:38]
then you’re not ultimately betraying each
other and then you don’t get into those
[00:09:41]
problems because you’re
both in the fight together.
[00:09:44]
Yeah, in the fight together.
[00:09:45]
So I want to back up a step to when he’s
[00:09:47]
in Montana and you at the time are
in Madison, you’re looking for Findlaw.
[00:09:52]
Did he reach out to you and say,
hey, let’s start a brewery?
[00:09:56]
No, no, it wasn’t like that so much.
[00:09:59]
It was more an evolution.
[00:10:02]
I don’t say we had gotten a master’s
[00:10:05]
in and strength and conditioning out
at MSU Billings
[00:10:08]
and initially started working at a brewery
for a part time job just to pay the bills.
[00:10:14]
And while he was in school.
All right.
[00:10:16]
Wasn’t a huge beer guy.
[00:10:18]
Has always been a cheap date, doesn’t
drink a lot of alcohol in general.
[00:10:22]
But he he was on the bottling line and had
had their black little oatmeal stout like
[00:10:28]
short, fell off the line with lunch
and had a real moment of clarity about
[00:10:34]
like, oh my gosh, this is like
totally different than the beer I’ve been
[00:10:38]
familiar with all growing up and felt
I’ve been lied to about what beer is
[00:10:43]
and what it should be and what it
could be in all these natural light.
[00:10:46]
Yeah, this isn’t this
isn’t whatever light.
[00:10:49]
And
[00:10:51]
so he started to get really
passionate about it.
[00:10:53]
He’s he’s a very sort of passion driven
[00:10:56]
guy, artistic guy,
but also very technical person.
[00:11:00]
And and it was a real outlet for him.
[00:11:03]
It was such a muse that once
he stumbled into this.
[00:11:06]
Wow, beer could be these other.
[00:11:08]
Realization
hit, he really ran it up pretty quickly,
[00:11:12]
and by the time he was out of school,
he was he was working his way
[00:11:17]
towards brewing and ultimately being
[00:11:18]
the head brewer out
at Yellowstone Valley Brewing Company
[00:11:20]
and being a pretty major person
running the operations there.
[00:11:24]
And he and he was getting
better at his craft.
[00:11:27]
He was getting better
at a seasonal program.
[00:11:28]
He was getting, you know,
out in the community.
[00:11:30]
And his bright personality was,
you know, creating a following.
[00:11:35]
And so as as just a family talking about
[00:11:38]
life along the way,
student debts starting to be due.
[00:11:42]
And, you know, I want to get
married and start a family.
[00:11:45]
And it was this question of,
OK, are you going to keep doing this?
[00:11:50]
You know, how serious are you about this?
[00:11:51]
And and
[00:11:54]
I think we should be looking for
opportunities, a little higher ceiling.
[00:11:57]
And
[00:11:59]
it’s always a real evolution.
[00:12:00]
I mean, all the way up until working
through the business plan,
[00:12:03]
he was still looking for opportunities
to maybe go back to school or
[00:12:07]
or get get another job, you know,
associated with his education.
[00:12:11]
And, yeah,
[00:12:14]
once we stumbled on this being an exact
opportunity in this location with this
[00:12:19]
timeline, things started
to fall into place faster.
[00:12:22]
And we got a lot more confident about,
[00:12:23]
hey, this is a real plan with a real
location, with a real timeline, you know,
[00:12:28]
and it gave a lot
of foundation to our plan.
[00:12:31]
And then and then we went
out and pitched an investor
[00:12:35]
in the first one we met with said yes.
[00:12:36]
And we were like, oh, wow,
first of all, the first one.
[00:12:39]
So now he ultimately ended up
not being a partner of ours.
[00:12:42]
So I still feel like still.
[00:12:44]
Yeah, but it gave us a ton of confidence
[00:12:46]
totally to have somebody
say this is the plan.
[00:12:48]
And I still remember he looked right at us
and he said, So you guys are the guys.
[00:12:52]
And we said, yes.
And he said, I’m in.
[00:12:55]
And we’re we’re like,
wow, what what to say.
[00:12:58]
Are you sure what just happened us?
[00:13:01]
And
[00:13:02]
I still owe that guy a bottle of scotch or
[00:13:04]
something, I think because we
I don’t know if we ever we didn’t really
[00:13:09]
talk much after that because plans started
accelerating in another direction.
[00:13:12]
And
[00:13:14]
but it gave us tons of confidence
not to say we’re doing this.
[00:13:17]
This isn’t an F thing.
This is a one thing.
[00:13:19]
And
[00:13:22]
and we we accelerated from there
and and and got it going.
[00:13:26]
So it wasn’t so much
him calling and saying, let’s do this.
[00:13:29]
It was more of just this ongoing
discussion, you know, what are we doing?
[00:13:33]
Are you going to do this?
And then it really wasn’t my focus
[00:13:37]
initially.
But just as time kept going on,
[00:13:40]
I got more involved in helping
structure the business plan.
[00:13:43]
Ryan had this
real brilliant friend out in Montana
[00:13:46]
that was helping to helping him just
kind of get the business plan organized.
[00:13:50]
And and we started working with our
friend Alex, who brought him in to
[00:13:55]
to help as well.
[00:13:56]
He was in between things and had some
some more time to throw into it to help
[00:14:01]
make sure we stayed aggressive
on making it happen.
[00:14:03]
And.
All right.
[00:14:05]
Did your brother ever have to sell you
[00:14:06]
on it, like, dude, this is
really happening kind of thing?
[00:14:09]
No.
No.
[00:14:11]
Or was there ever like you were
at the time working at Finau, so.
[00:14:14]
Yeah, decent job.
[00:14:15]
Yeah, I was really busy,
I, I was really busy in my job.
[00:14:20]
If enough was going very well,
I, I it’s a great company.
[00:14:25]
I mean my plan was to,
to try to be an owner there you know.
[00:14:28]
Yeah.
I really,
[00:14:31]
I had, I had kind of big dreams no matter
where they were before all of that.
[00:14:35]
I wanted to play professional baseball.
[00:14:37]
Then I as I switched away from that,
[00:14:38]
I was like, oh,
I’m going to be an engineer and I want
[00:14:41]
to own the construction firm or
developer and on the buildings.
[00:14:44]
And I always had that kind of edge to to
be in control of my destiny a little bit.
[00:14:50]
So that was going really well.
[00:14:51]
But I, I was having a bit of a quarterlife
[00:14:53]
crisis that I, I was I was managing a big,
big project in Milwaukee.
[00:15:01]
I had to have been about the youngest guy
[00:15:02]
running a high rise project
in an urban city in the country.
[00:15:06]
And and and I, I had this just sort
[00:15:09]
of quarterlife crisis moment of like,
is this it, you know, is this
[00:15:13]
I’m just going to chase the same sort of
thing for the next 20 years or two years.
[00:15:18]
And it freaked me out a little bit.
[00:15:20]
And I was getting more and more of an itch
to do something entrepreneurial.
[00:15:26]
So the brewery really gave me an outlet
[00:15:28]
because I didn’t really know what it
would be if I did something else.
[00:15:31]
I just knew that I could bring project
[00:15:33]
management and business
and engineering skills to something.
[00:15:37]
And and
[00:15:39]
and the brewery was was the outlet
for me at the time.
[00:15:43]
And it sounds like a lot
of stars aligned really well.
[00:15:46]
Oh yeah.
It very much because because it wasn’t
[00:15:48]
Ryan’s big master plan, you know,
when he went out to Montana either.
[00:15:52]
And
[00:15:54]
a lot of things had to come together.
[00:15:55]
And at the end of the day,
it’s just willpower.
[00:15:58]
Totally.
Oh, man.
[00:15:59]
I think that’s that’s
that’s the secret to all of life.
[00:16:03]
You know, ideas are a dime a dozen.
[00:16:05]
I think a lot of people overvalue ideas.
[00:16:08]
It’s execution and willpower.
[00:16:10]
This is the guy he’s like,
I’m an idea man, like everyone tonight,
[00:16:14]
everybody has an idea we
could sit here together.
[00:16:16]
I was listening to somebody make a comment
like,
[00:16:19]
you know, if we sat down for an hour,
we could probably chart out everything
[00:16:22]
that’s going to happen over
the next 50 to 100 years.
[00:16:25]
Sure, you can talk about AVR,
all the electrical stuff and digital
[00:16:30]
things and and the way crypto is going
and left is not that hard to see where all
[00:16:36]
of these things are going
and what our life could be like.
[00:16:39]
It’s execution.
I mean, it’s right.
[00:16:41]
There’s really not.
[00:16:42]
Yeah, you don’t need
to wait around for ideas.
[00:16:45]
You just need to do things
and turn it into a business.
[00:16:47]
And it’s really hard.
[00:16:48]
It’s still very hard for us today.
[00:16:49]
I mean, just to stay relevant,
to stay in business.
[00:16:54]
Really, I still feel very much like
[00:16:56]
a startup, I don’t feel like we
figured out after nine years.
[00:16:59]
Oh yeah, I don’t feel like we’ve
hardly ever gotten started.
[00:17:02]
Yeah, I can tell my business
is nine years as well.
[00:17:05]
And I can say that their day is
this day, too.
[00:17:08]
Yeah.
Like we we learned nothing.
[00:17:10]
We’ve learned nothing.
Yeah.
[00:17:11]
We there’s so many things
that we do wrong or not.
[00:17:14]
Not as well as I’d like to and
I talk with a lot of people
[00:17:20]
have the same dream I did.
[00:17:21]
You know, if I was in charge
I would just do all of these things.
[00:17:25]
Yeah.
It would be like there would be utopia and
[00:17:28]
and then you start doing it and realize,
oh, no, it’s messy and complicated.
[00:17:32]
And really the whole magic is can you
[00:17:35]
operate it and not do you have ideas
or have dreams or utopian visions?
[00:17:39]
It’s more like,
[00:17:41]
can you grind it day in and day out
and you can you make small steps
[00:17:45]
forward and make more of them
forward and backward?
[00:17:48]
And
[00:17:50]
are you willing to.
Are you willing to.
[00:17:52]
Yeah.
[00:17:52]
And is your family willing
to go along for that ride?
[00:17:54]
I mean, great Segway because
there was no question.
[00:17:57]
How are you married or were
you married at the time?
[00:17:59]
I saw the year we opened, I, I opened
that high rise building in Milwaukee.
[00:18:06]
I got married and we opened the brewery
within three months of each other.
[00:18:10]
I saw I didn’t sleep
for about three months.
[00:18:13]
You know, it
[00:18:16]
was a great year.
So I’m married.
[00:18:19]
I have three daughters now.
Oh, nice.
[00:18:21]
My wife Laura and I live out monarchy now.
[00:18:24]
We have three little girls,
beautiful girls.
[00:18:26]
We
[00:18:28]
at the time she was I forgot to add,
[00:18:30]
she was getting her doctorate nursing
that year as well.
[00:18:34]
She she’d gone back to school.
[00:18:37]
So she was on our end in school to get
her doctorate to be a nurse practitioner.
[00:18:41]
I was just killing myself,
[00:18:44]
driving and walking back every day,
running that project open.
[00:18:47]
The brewery got married.
[00:18:50]
And then when we had our first daughter
[00:18:54]
about a year and a half later,
[00:18:57]
that was the moment that I knew
I had to quit my day job at ten.
[00:19:00]
OK, so it was going to ask you when you
[00:19:02]
when you walked into that office and said,
hey, that was the hardest thing that
[00:19:06]
I that was
I don’t know if it’s the hardest thing,
[00:19:10]
but like one of the hardest things
in my life, I’ll never forget.
[00:19:13]
I, I was absolutely dreading
[00:19:16]
having that discussion because like I
said, I was really working my tail off.
[00:19:20]
There was a great company.
I was treated well.
[00:19:23]
I felt like I was on the right path
to to be in a leadership position there.
[00:19:28]
And I was I was overseeing a handful
[00:19:32]
of pretty large projects that were
kind of coming down the pipeline.
[00:19:36]
And and I’d have to walk in.
[00:19:38]
And I know just really, you know,
[00:19:40]
ruin the day for my boss to be like,
sorry, I have to go.
[00:19:44]
And there’s all this stuff I’m
dealing with for you and I’m gone.
[00:19:48]
There’s a stack of headache.
Yeah.
[00:19:49]
Like, sorry,
[00:19:52]
it was it was pretty tough.
[00:19:55]
A guy I really admire, Jim, really.
[00:19:57]
He’s now the president CEO and ah,
that’s why I want to talk to
[00:20:01]
I had my box all packed up in case they
just had to walk me out because I respect
[00:20:04]
that, you know, sometimes
you have to just do that.
[00:20:06]
But since I was changing industries,
I was a little easier to say.
[00:20:09]
Let’s just transition you out over like
a two week period and help I can help you
[00:20:14]
with the transition and help them figure
out how to reallocate the workload.
[00:20:18]
And
[00:20:20]
so very difficult decision.
[00:20:22]
But it was
[00:20:25]
the most clarity I’ve ever felt
[00:20:27]
in my life, I think was like
the moment my daughter son was born.
[00:20:31]
It was just it was a very weird kind
[00:20:34]
of out of body experience
for a lot of reasons.
[00:20:35]
I think maybe a lot of parents
[00:20:38]
could could relate to.
[00:20:39]
But for me in particular,
just going crazy about what should I do?
[00:20:43]
Should I leave my job?
[00:20:44]
It was just it was immediate.
I quit.
[00:20:46]
I cannot take the risk of missing
more time with this girl.
[00:20:50]
Right.
Your priorities change.
[00:20:52]
Oh, just changed.
It was just not even close.
[00:20:54]
You don’t even get a choice.
It’s not like it just wasn’t a problem.
[00:20:58]
You know, I can always work.
[00:21:00]
I can’t you know, this is my daughter.
They’re only young ones.
[00:21:03]
Yeah.
Yeah, that’s fair.
[00:21:05]
So how long were you with Findlaw?
[00:21:08]
About seven years, six or seven years,
I enter, I started interning pretty full
[00:21:12]
time, interning in college, and then
just transitioned out of college.
[00:21:16]
So summer like 07, somewhere in 07,
six or seven to April of 14.
[00:21:24]
OK, six, six, seven years.
[00:21:26]
All right,
then. It’s the time when you get
[00:21:29]
in the car after you have
that conversation, correct?
[00:21:32]
Yeah, it was.
[00:21:36]
Yeah,
[00:21:37]
it was liberating because it just to make
a decision and move forward, but it was.
[00:21:43]
It was pretty horrifying because I just I
felt like I really let Jim down and I
[00:21:48]
and my coworkers there,
that that they wouldn’t understand I’m
[00:21:51]
leaving, you know,
because we’re all these, like,
[00:21:56]
I don’t know, self abusing engineer types
in the construction industry like Jerry.
[00:22:00]
Dutiful work really hard.
[00:22:02]
You know, there’s nothing
better than building projects.
[00:22:04]
We love projects.
And I I am that person.
[00:22:06]
I love that.
But yeah.
[00:22:08]
But to leave and start a brewery,
[00:22:10]
it was kind of like, wow,
you know, what are you doing?
[00:22:12]
Yeah.
So that’s it.
[00:22:14]
But they were cool about it.
They’re very cool about it.
[00:22:16]
Still supportive.
I still work.
[00:22:17]
They do small, they do small
projects for us around the brewery.
[00:22:20]
Still there’s guys just up the road at the
Europeans building that they just built.
[00:22:25]
The project team comes down to get
beers after work sometimes.
[00:22:28]
And
[00:22:29]
so no bad blood.
None at all.
[00:22:31]
None at all.
If it’s all about choices, it’s just that.
[00:22:33]
Yeah, it’s just a beer in my path,
you know, great company.
[00:22:37]
No bad blood at all.
Yeah.
[00:22:39]
I interviewed Chandler Fandor.
Oh goodness.
[00:22:42]
Punkish.
Really great guy.
[00:22:43]
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
[00:22:44]
That’s cool company.
[00:22:46]
Very much interesting.
[00:22:47]
It’s overwhelming some
of the projects they do but yeah.
[00:22:50]
Talk about overwhelming.
Let’s shift into employees.
[00:22:54]
So
[00:22:56]
you start this brewery, you get the space,
[00:22:58]
you’re all building out now
you got to hire people.
[00:23:01]
How did that go.
[00:23:05]
Initially it was exciting and great and
kind of easy because it’s a small group.
[00:23:09]
You know, it really just
Alex was your day to day and our friend
[00:23:12]
Tom, the artist was was behind the bar
like a bar manager right away for us.
[00:23:17]
So our small group of of guys that were
pretty focused,
[00:23:22]
Ryan could do all the production we needed
to do by himself because we were just
[00:23:25]
taking beer at the time and most
of the backspace was empty.
[00:23:29]
So it’s a pretty small group.
[00:23:30]
We had a couple of extra people
helping bartend and cook
[00:23:35]
and that that team started to grow.
[00:23:37]
And over the next six to 12 months
and a lot of those early headaches Alex
[00:23:41]
dealt with, it wasn’t me
dealing with nice and.
[00:23:48]
You know, but it it pretty quickly becomes
[00:23:52]
clear, you know, how important your people
are and it’s you know,
[00:23:57]
you can’t we early on we were here
every weekend, you know, Saturday.
[00:24:01]
So we would be close Sundays just
to give ourselves a day away.
[00:24:04]
And,
[00:24:06]
you know, once you start to realize, like,
hey, we really got to figure out how
[00:24:09]
to have people around
helping us get this done.
[00:24:11]
And we’re never going to make it.
We’re never going to grow.
[00:24:12]
We’re going to burn out.
[00:24:15]
So, yeah, but it’s people’s really
the whole thing, I think in the end.
[00:24:21]
Yeah.
Without them.
[00:24:22]
Yeah.
You have a job.
[00:24:23]
Yeah.
It takes a lot of time.
[00:24:25]
Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:24:26]
And speaking of feeling,
right when it’s just you,
[00:24:30]
there’s only so many hours in a day so
you start adding people you can raise it.
[00:24:33]
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
[00:24:34]
It’s the whole game.
It’s, it’s that execution.
[00:24:36]
Right.
I mention that really most of that is just
[00:24:39]
can you find a way to write
to bring together a group of people to
[00:24:45]
do something, whatever it is,
get organized and do it.
[00:24:48]
Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:24:49]
So I know that when I first started
my businesses,
[00:24:53]
the employee thing was something that I
did not know was such a headache.
[00:24:56]
I learned the hard way.
[00:24:57]
So did you know from project
[00:24:59]
and stuff like that,
the employees could be a challenge?
[00:25:03]
Yeah.
Yeah,
[00:25:06]
you’re lucky.
Yeah.
[00:25:07]
So when I would manage teams it was each
[00:25:11]
little project was like its own little
mini company in general contracting.
[00:25:15]
So like the last project that I completed
[00:25:18]
Moderne over Milwaukee,
we had like a project management team,
[00:25:23]
I don’t know, about a half a dozen people.
And then,
[00:25:26]
you know, at peak we probably had four
or five hundred people on the job site.
[00:25:30]
And I think overall worked two or three
[00:25:32]
thousand, you know,
different people touching the job.
[00:25:34]
And and, you know,
[00:25:36]
you have all the foremen
and the superintendent and the project
[00:25:38]
managers of all those other
various subcontractors.
[00:25:41]
So
[00:25:43]
being in a team environment was
never that was not a shock at all.
[00:25:46]
All right.
[00:25:48]
That probably the the bigger thing I was,
to be honest, that was a much better
[00:25:52]
manager in that life than I am here,
because it it’s people.
[00:25:58]
But it’s not just it’s not just people.
[00:26:00]
It’s the fact that you’re
really responsible.
[00:26:02]
Right.
Every part of that.
[00:26:03]
Yeah.
[00:26:04]
Payroll, H.R., the health insurance,
the unemployment issues, the the
[00:26:12]
everything issues that all of that.
[00:26:16]
And then and then career development
and morale and direction and.
[00:26:25]
Yeah, the whole.
[00:26:26]
Yeah, and then in this business,
[00:26:27]
it’s real dynamic, because you have
you have different things going on.
[00:26:31]
You have your manufacturing staff
versus your you know,
[00:26:35]
versus your tap room in front of house
staff and even in the front of house.
[00:26:39]
There’s this dynamic between when we used
to have our kitchen open and
[00:26:43]
the front of house back a house
in a retail component that you just have
[00:26:47]
these very different little
subcultures within one business.
[00:26:51]
That and and then to deal with all
of these issues that really made me
[00:26:56]
appreciate when I was at Findlaw
how much stuff was being handled for us
[00:27:01]
to run jobs, all of the administrative
and accounting in H.R. and the training
[00:27:05]
and the the other stuff,
I think people would be
[00:27:11]
really kind of surprised.
[00:27:13]
Shocked at how much?
[00:27:16]
Bad news comes to you as the owner
[00:27:18]
of the company pretty much in the bad news
business or the fire owner putting out if
[00:27:23]
it’s bad, if it’s really bad,
that’s like everything we get.
[00:27:26]
And it’s always really bad when it’s a bad
thing with a person, whether they have
[00:27:31]
like a family member pass away or dealing
with covid and trying to keep keep us
[00:27:36]
moving forward, but without
taking undue risk and
[00:27:41]
trying to make sure you take serious you
[00:27:43]
know, your role is as the person
taking responsibility for their job.
[00:27:47]
Right.
[00:27:49]
Without being taken advantage of because
[00:27:52]
firings really difficult
time is really difficult.
[00:27:54]
Oh, yeah, it’s crazy.
Yeah.
[00:27:56]
The team dynamic wasn’t a shock,
[00:27:58]
but all of those other things
is still it can be very overwhelming.
[00:28:02]
Yeah.
[00:28:03]
I imagine a place like this,
just the culture alone is probably
[00:28:06]
tough to manage
because you want especially I don’t know
[00:28:09]
what it’s like now, but a year and a half
ago when unemployment was so low,
[00:28:14]
you’re tough to find people
very difficult, very difficult.
[00:28:17]
And you would have there’s always
[00:28:18]
a certain amount of people that
that are sort of professional gaming
[00:28:22]
the system, not at applying or maybe
applying so that they can still justify
[00:28:27]
getting employment or they have
to show up for maybe one shift.
[00:28:30]
Yeah.
And just extend their hours unemployment
[00:28:35]
benefits so that they can
keep staying on that.
[00:28:38]
And they did.
They bail out on us.
[00:28:40]
And now that’s that’s
more of the exception.
[00:28:43]
But it is a it is a dynamic
really of the of the industry and
[00:28:48]
you know.
[00:28:52]
Overwhelmingly,
[00:28:54]
though, people are out here doing a great
job and they’re not trying to take
[00:28:58]
advantage of anything, they’re really
trying to help grow the brand.
[00:29:00]
They’re excited about beer.
[00:29:02]
They’re excited about
the fun branding that we have.
[00:29:04]
We we try to keep
we try to keep in balance
[00:29:09]
some chaos because I think a lot of people
are in the beer industry because they want
[00:29:13]
it to be a little bit more wild,
a little bit less structured,
[00:29:17]
a little more creative,
a little more of like riding the
[00:29:21]
riding the dragon here of creativity
and whatever our brand gets to be.
[00:29:26]
And
[00:29:27]
that can be an interesting balance of
[00:29:30]
trying to bring less formality
into a business structure and allow
[00:29:34]
for more a little more chaos without
it being a total mess right now.
[00:29:38]
That’s a balance that we ran.
[00:29:39]
And I’ve talked about a lot of what we
don’t want to have too many policies
[00:29:43]
and things because we want people
to they’re here for a reason.
[00:29:45]
If they wanted a bunch of structure,
[00:29:47]
they’d go sell insurance or something
and probably make more money.
[00:29:50]
But they’re here because they
don’t want to be miserable.
[00:29:52]
They want to
[00:29:55]
feel a little bit more alive and in it.
[00:29:57]
But it’s a real balance.
[00:29:59]
It’s a real balance.
[00:30:01]
It’s interesting dynamic, I guess,
[00:30:03]
that you stayed out there, because in my
industry rules, the society’s everything.
[00:30:07]
Yeah.
[00:30:08]
I’m like, there’s there’s something
to be said about what you got going on.
[00:30:11]
I’m going to learn something here.
[00:30:12]
Yeah, I feel you
engineering’s the same way.
[00:30:14]
I was all about how efficiently can we
build a building more cheaply, how
[00:30:19]
inexpensively, I should say,
and how cheaply, inexpensively, fast.
[00:30:23]
I guess it comes everything
with speed and efficiency and lean.
[00:30:26]
And right here it’s OK.
[00:30:28]
We have that stuff we need we do need
[00:30:30]
procedure and process to repeatably make
it easier to do a lot of things right.
[00:30:34]
But we have to be real careful not
[00:30:37]
to steal the soul because the whole
business is based on totally.
[00:30:41]
Yeah, yeah.
[00:30:41]
I can see if you’re building a building,
there’s certain there’s rules that you
[00:30:44]
want to follow if you want
the building to stay up.
[00:30:46]
Yeah.
With beer there’s probably more,
[00:30:48]
there’s somewhat of an art and also
a lot of customer service.
[00:30:51]
Yes.
[00:30:52]
Which there are guidelines but they
don’t necessarily have to be
[00:30:56]
scripted.
Yeah.
[00:30:58]
Or something like that.
Yeah.
[00:30:59]
There’s there can be
no hostility in there.
[00:31:01]
Yes.
[00:31:02]
It requires personality,
[00:31:04]
it requires authenticity and and
authenticity requires people to be
[00:31:10]
to inject themselves into the solutions in
the service and to be real with people.
[00:31:15]
Yeah.
[00:31:16]
But we, you know, we fail
all the time at that stuff.
[00:31:19]
It’s a really it’s a really
kind of wild balance of
[00:31:24]
enough structure,
enough guidance so that people aren’t
[00:31:27]
totally confused or feel like they’re
floating through space with what we’re
[00:31:30]
trying to do, which which honestly,
we you know, we fill it all the time.
[00:31:33]
But but I think we we tend to slightly
air on that that loose script side.
[00:31:39]
Sure.
[00:31:40]
To try to keep
because at the end of the day,
[00:31:42]
we also think that the most talented
people will find ways to shine.
[00:31:47]
If there’s a little control,
totally might.
[00:31:50]
We might find that person
that could just change the game.
[00:31:53]
Yes.
That is a thousand times over and over.
[00:31:56]
Agree with that.
Tell me about the name.
[00:31:58]
Where did the name Carbon-Carbon are?
[00:32:00]
That was six months of discussion,
of long discussion of we probably spent
[00:32:06]
more time talking about what our
name should be than anything else.
[00:32:09]
And that that pre planning stage,
that was the battle that.
[00:32:13]
Well, it was it was it was more of this
discovery than it was like total battle.
[00:32:17]
I think we were all a little bit confused
on what what did we really want?
[00:32:21]
Because to take it back,
we we had discovered the space.
[00:32:24]
And this this exact plan
[00:32:27]
at the end of 2011 was when Ryan had
called, I think when we came to meet
[00:32:31]
with asylum in the landlord
was Halloween of 2011.
[00:32:35]
OK, so by I think about March of twenty
twelve, we we had financing and we signed
[00:32:41]
and everything figured out what we had
from March 2012 until October to move in.
[00:32:46]
All right.
And they were here.
[00:32:47]
So there’s nothing we could do.
Yeah.
[00:32:48]
It’s just talking the waiting game.
[00:32:50]
We spent those six, seven months just
totally focused on what’s our branding.
[00:32:56]
I mean there were certainly equipments
[00:32:57]
and things that we were
also putting together.
[00:33:01]
Ryan was shopping for and stuff.
[00:33:02]
But a lot of what we were talking
about were what’s our brand?
[00:33:06]
What’s it going to whatever what’s it
[00:33:08]
going to be look like, feel like,
sound like, what’s our approach?
[00:33:12]
What’s our strategic approach?
[00:33:13]
And, you know, Bier’s,
[00:33:14]
we’re going to bring out what’s
going to be our first line up.
[00:33:17]
How are we going to do seasonals and
[00:33:21]
the the brand?
[00:33:23]
We knew that we wanted something scalable,
[00:33:25]
that we didn’t want to be
painted into a corner with like
[00:33:29]
a thematic brand.
[00:33:30]
I think the joke is that we always said
we don’t want, like a Disney ride brand.
[00:33:34]
Oh, sure enough, it’s like
cottage brewing company.
[00:33:37]
And then everything’s like
canoe paddle and paddle.
[00:33:40]
And it’s like all these things.
[00:33:42]
Well, we didn’t want to do that.
[00:33:44]
We don’t want to be painted
into a corner because we didn’t.
[00:33:47]
Who are we going to be in five, ten years?
You know, we want.
[00:33:50]
Something that’ll grow with us
[00:33:52]
and who to our customers say we are,
because the brand, the the sort of spirit
[00:33:57]
of our brand and who we were going to be
as a company was going to be defined
[00:34:00]
by our employees and by our
customers and by us all together.
[00:34:04]
We’re trying stuff, you know,
failing that could evolve.
[00:34:08]
Yeah, it has to.
[00:34:09]
Yeah, we really wanted to.
[00:34:10]
So we needed a point of view and it needed
to be us, but it needed to be something
[00:34:15]
that would grow and scale
and wouldn’t pigeonhole us.
[00:34:18]
And so that led us to kind of want
to and sort of invent a word, you know,
[00:34:24]
or find a brand that didn’t
feel like it meant anything.
[00:34:27]
And except for us
[00:34:29]
and this idea of elemental carbon being
the foundation of our physical existence
[00:34:35]
and and then beer being
the foundation of civilization,
[00:34:39]
was this this idea that it was very
elemental, that it was very,
[00:34:44]
I like to say principled,
but not traditional, so very
[00:34:49]
limitless potential,
even the very principle fundamentals.
[00:34:53]
All right.
[00:34:53]
So elemental carbon was there was
an idea that was captured by that.
[00:34:58]
But we didn’t want to sound like a biotech
[00:35:00]
company and it just
didn’t look right to us.
[00:35:03]
The regular, you know, Kabalan,
[00:35:06]
we’re both maybe in engineering,
being like premed, Occam, you know,
[00:35:11]
very technical with with
chemistry and biology.
[00:35:13]
We just didn’t feel like a brewery.
[00:35:16]
And our friend Tom wrote,
[00:35:18]
we had this long list of ideas
and he had he had written carbon 12 one
[00:35:24]
time, all lowercase carbon,
but spelt it carbon.
[00:35:28]
And then one, two.
[00:35:29]
And it was like it was on the list,
but it wasn’t a real serious contender.
[00:35:33]
But I think we all sort of secretly had
[00:35:35]
our eye on it because
all of a sudden it came back to the top
[00:35:39]
and was like, you know,
this really captures this idea.
[00:35:42]
We keep talking about this very,
like, limitless potential idea.
[00:35:46]
And
[00:35:48]
and but but we wanted
to change the number.
[00:35:52]
And and so we started debating
the finer points of that.
[00:35:56]
But I think we were sitting at Salata
in Fair Oaks having an awesome meal
[00:36:01]
and a few beers and and we just agreed
for like it’s carved for we’re just doing
[00:36:05]
it, you know, we like
we like the spelling.
[00:36:07]
We like the way it sounds and looks.
[00:36:09]
And we like we like K4 shortened and nice.
[00:36:13]
And we felt like it could be
[00:36:15]
it wouldn’t bring any preconceived
bias or notion to to itself.
[00:36:19]
You just kind of say, what what’s that.
[00:36:23]
So it’s one of those like it can only mean
[00:36:25]
it can only be one thing because
it’s a little bit strange.
[00:36:29]
And carbon four could be carbon
[00:36:31]
for brewing, could be
carbon for distilling it.
[00:36:34]
You know, we could we could
we could really grow with it.
[00:36:36]
So yeah,
it’s really just meant to be a thing
[00:36:39]
that we like pushed away from the dock
and we’ll see where it goes.
[00:36:43]
But but that’s some
of the inspiration for it.
[00:36:46]
So I have to apologize
because I’m not a chemist.
[00:36:49]
So the is that representative of anything?
[00:36:51]
I mean, yes and no.
[00:36:53]
At the end of the day,
[00:36:54]
from a brand strategy standpoint,
no, it means nothing.
[00:36:57]
OK, I think a lot of people oh,
[00:36:59]
there must be four of you or there are
four valence electrons in carbon.
[00:37:03]
And that’s part of why it bonds the way
it does and why it’s so foundational.
[00:37:07]
So probably the closest inspiration
is the valence electrons and carbon.
[00:37:11]
But it’s not meant to be literal.
[00:37:14]
It’s meant to be a brand.
[00:37:15]
And we like the way it looked
in the angularity with the K and.
[00:37:19]
Sure.
And the sound.
[00:37:20]
So it’s just a name don’t read.
[00:37:22]
It’s really just a name.
[00:37:23]
It’s meant to be its own thing.
[00:37:25]
And
[00:37:27]
I you know, we can be a little grumpy
[00:37:29]
about that sometimes because it always
gets misspelled that you if there’s
[00:37:32]
a space between carbon
and four, we hate it.
[00:37:35]
But together we loved it.
[00:37:36]
So we really didn’t pick
[00:37:39]
a great brand for a lot of those little,
like nuisance reasons.
[00:37:44]
And when we explain it to people,
[00:37:46]
usually they kind of stare at us blankly
and it’s like some other four of you.
[00:37:49]
It’s like now one more time.
[00:37:51]
But but yeah, it’s meant
to be its own thing.
[00:37:55]
All right, cool.
Something.
[00:37:56]
Yeah.
Let’s talk about the beer.
[00:37:59]
So you guys start out by mentioning your
brother had some ideas for flavors.
[00:38:04]
Oh, styles of beer.
Yeah.
[00:38:06]
So how was that figured out?
[00:38:08]
This source batches.
[00:38:09]
Ryan was the lead on that all the way.
[00:38:11]
He he had a whole bunch of different beers
that that he knew he wanted to make.
[00:38:15]
And and we we deliberated over
[00:38:19]
what would be sort of our early attempt
at flagship versus some seasonal program.
[00:38:24]
So what we did is we brought out
[00:38:28]
I believe we brought out five flagged
that they deal was the first five.
[00:38:32]
We’re going to be flagship type beers.
[00:38:34]
And it was our night call.
[00:38:36]
Smoked Porter,
[00:38:38]
our our Tokyo sauna was a report
or I’m sorry, samurai or IPA.
[00:38:43]
Later we evolved to Tokyo Sonna,
[00:38:46]
Undercover Session Ale, Lady Luck,
Imperial Red Corvette and Irish.
[00:38:50]
At that point and block party amber ale,
so we wanted a spectrum of of.
[00:38:58]
Like, just good,
[00:39:00]
well executed staple beers,
and then we we knew IPAs were really
[00:39:05]
important back then, but we didn’t
want to just be stuck with one.
[00:39:08]
We we wanted to bring it
out as a regular rotator.
[00:39:11]
So our plan was that we were going to have
[00:39:14]
like a slot in the calendar,
but have a change seasonally.
[00:39:18]
Oh, nice.
[00:39:19]
And our second IP in that lineup
was Fantasy Factory.
[00:39:22]
Oh, it’s the big one.
[00:39:23]
And yeah, the world would not
let us stop making that beer.
[00:39:26]
So that’s that’s a good problem.
Yeah.
[00:39:28]
Today it’s seventy five
percent of our business.
[00:39:31]
We try and we’re still trying to work
[00:39:33]
to diversify a little better, but it
just took off and never turned back.
[00:39:35]
Wow.
So make other stuff we have to make
[00:39:38]
to hundreds of other beers,
but that’s overwhelmingly the big volume.
[00:39:42]
It might be the label.
Yeah, might be.
[00:39:44]
Yeah.
It’s a fantastic label.
[00:39:45]
Yeah.
That’s cool.
[00:39:47]
Yeah.
So is is your brother the one that chooses
[00:39:50]
this stuff or is it deliberate throughout
the employees or customers at this point.
[00:39:55]
It’s a it’s it comes
from all over the place.
[00:39:57]
There’s inspiration, tons of inspiration
from the team internally.
[00:40:02]
There’s collaborative projects, you know,
or people outside that that have ideas.
[00:40:09]
I mean, I guess at the end of the day,
it’s mostly Ryan and I talking about
[00:40:14]
what do we want to make versus what’s
going on in the world around us.
[00:40:18]
What have we already made, you know,
and make sure that whatever we’re bringing
[00:40:21]
out is kind of in context of
where does it fit in our program?
[00:40:25]
How do we want to bring it
and what do we want to call it?
[00:40:27]
Sometimes we have real clear direction
on a name and a and a style of beer.
[00:40:32]
Other times we
[00:40:33]
we know we really want a certain style
and we struggle a bit for the name.
[00:40:36]
And
[00:40:39]
it
[00:40:40]
it’s a free flowing process constantly.
[00:40:43]
And now we’re we’re stretched way beyond
[00:40:46]
beer, where there’s this whole beyond
beer category that hard seltzer’s and.
[00:40:50]
Oh sure, higher alcohol seltzer’s.
[00:40:52]
And at some point in the future,
[00:40:53]
cannabis infused products
of certain types, Kampuchea
[00:40:59]
tea.
[00:41:00]
You know, there’s all these beyond beer
things that we’re really excited about.
[00:41:03]
So
[00:41:05]
I’d say our plan right now is to find
the right way to sort of narrowing our
[00:41:09]
focus on our beer schedule
and and make sure we just really love
[00:41:15]
every every beer that’s sticking around
on our calendar and make sure there’s no
[00:41:19]
filler space and then also grow these some
of these other segments alongside of it.
[00:41:24]
So that’s cool.
It’s interesting.
[00:41:27]
They always seem to be
coming up the constant.
[00:41:29]
Yeah, it’s always some
[00:41:31]
change that the pace of innovation
and change and craft is unbelievable.
[00:41:35]
When we first started,
there were eighteen hundred breweries
[00:41:37]
in the country that are now approaching
10000 and over the course of ten years.
[00:41:42]
Yeah.
And then the amount of different beers
[00:41:46]
that those breweries are
making has also grown.
[00:41:51]
Ten times at a minimum, I mean, maybe 50
times, I mean, when we first started,
[00:41:57]
we would
[00:41:59]
we had, you know,
five to seven beers that we might be
[00:42:02]
offering and we had initially
just fantasy factory and package.
[00:42:06]
And then we had just one more
block party or lady luck.
[00:42:09]
Now we could put 40 or 50 different
beers in a package a year every year.
[00:42:15]
And their breweries that put out like
anywhere from two to four a week.
[00:42:20]
And they and they make
just a tiny amount of it.
[00:42:22]
And then they scatter it to the wind and.
Sure.
[00:42:24]
And they do that twice a week to try to
reverse engineer some volume.
[00:42:30]
So it’s a very different game.
All right.
[00:42:32]
Than it used to be.
And it it’s almost well,
[00:42:36]
it’s basically impossible to actually find
something truly unique as a producer if
[00:42:41]
you make something I mean,
every every fruit combination.
[00:42:44]
And and this combination is pretty much
been tried a hundred times at this point.
[00:42:50]
So I think I think we’re getting to a
place in craft where we really have to.
[00:42:55]
Like, make sure you narrow in on your
[00:42:57]
point of view and the things
that you’re best at.
[00:43:00]
Sure.
And make sure to build that that’s solid
[00:43:03]
core business and then
so that you don’t lose the soul of chaos
[00:43:07]
element of before, like really
designing your seasonal program.
[00:43:11]
Yeah.
[00:43:13]
In context of all this stuff going on,
what’s your niche.
[00:43:17]
Yeah.
Kind of thing.
[00:43:18]
OK, interesting.
[00:43:19]
Tell me I want to shift into marketing.
Yeah.
[00:43:21]
So you first started your business,
you had to get known and you had to say,
[00:43:25]
hey, we’re not
here to say we’re new on the block.
[00:43:28]
Yeah.
Like how did you go about marketing
[00:43:31]
and getting the name out there, both
retail wise and on store shelves
[00:43:38]
retail wise?
[00:43:39]
It was it was kind of early days
of Facebook and starting to put out some
[00:43:44]
video content, like on a Facebook page and
did a little bit a little bit of a
[00:43:49]
paid direction just to make sure that,
hey, this new page on Facebook exists.
[00:43:54]
And so so definitely bought a few clicks
[00:43:57]
early on just to sort of put us
on people’s shouldn’t think there was even
[00:44:01]
a news feed back then,
put us on whatever that was.
[00:44:03]
I can’t remember 10 years ago,
but to help to say, hey, we’re here.
[00:44:07]
So there was a little bit of that, the
sort of like genuine social media stuff.
[00:44:14]
And and then the rest of it
was just community outreach.
[00:44:19]
We we
[00:44:21]
we we hooked up with the Madison Hombres
and Tasters Guild are the people that put
[00:44:26]
on great taste and got on their radar
early to get into the great taste.
[00:44:31]
Our first year we worked,
[00:44:33]
we got into the Atmosphere and
Cheese Festival on our grand opening day.
[00:44:36]
So we had just opened.
[00:44:37]
But but Alex back channel with us to get
[00:44:40]
us into that festival so that we
could be at the festival.
[00:44:43]
Yeah.
So getting out to festivals and tastings
[00:44:46]
of every kind we could and it would be us
behind the behind the stand serving beer,
[00:44:50]
talking about the beer till
we were blue in the face.
[00:44:53]
So it was a lot of that grassroots kind
of guerrilla style,
[00:44:56]
just sampling people and then trying
to create, you know,
[00:45:00]
bearly stuff here in the tap room where
we had a soft opening December 28th.
[00:45:05]
And then every week for the next five
[00:45:07]
weeks, we had a beer release leading up
to our grand opening in a beer release.
[00:45:10]
So try to create buzz around new
beers and a new taproom in town and
[00:45:18]
worked with the oh, my gosh,
what was their name?
[00:45:22]
It was it was a club or I don’t
know if they’d call it a guild.
[00:45:26]
I can’t remember what it was called now,
but it was like a mustache and beard guild
[00:45:29]
or something, really,
that we that we did a big party with here
[00:45:33]
because we undercover our beer was
like mustache themed and funny.
[00:45:38]
So we threw this big party and all these
guys with crazy beards and mustaches came
[00:45:41]
in and did like a big
sort of like beauty competition standing
[00:45:45]
on the bar, you know,
raiding their beards and stuff.
[00:45:48]
So it was just dumb stuff like that.
Yes.
[00:45:51]
Guerilla marketing stuff.
[00:45:52]
And then we knew that we wanted to
[00:45:56]
first try to focus on getting people
into the taproom so that we could
[00:46:00]
personally meet people across the bar,
see at that first person interaction.
[00:46:04]
So you had your lowest ceiling revenue
[00:46:07]
in the taproom by fire,
by far the highest margin.
[00:46:10]
All right.
[00:46:10]
And then you have your first person
brand interaction with everybody.
[00:46:14]
Introduce ourselves right over the bar.
[00:46:16]
Then it was self distribution keg only
[00:46:20]
in the Madison area where Alex and Tom
[00:46:22]
would go out and sell and deliver
beer to the bars directly.
[00:46:27]
So from from the brewery.
[00:46:28]
Yeah, but now it’s now it’s the brewery
guys talking to the bar buyers,
[00:46:34]
the bartenders and things at bars
and restaurants in Madison.
[00:46:37]
So you had that second person interaction,
people drinking our beer.
[00:46:40]
Yeah.
[00:46:41]
And but you have a little bit higher
little higher volume, little lower profit
[00:46:45]
and and then assigned a distributor so
that they would take over that sales role.
[00:46:50]
So you get into that more third person
[00:46:52]
interaction with the brand,
but you create some more scale.
[00:46:56]
And then we wanted that to play out
[00:46:57]
for a little while before we put beer
in package because we really wanted
[00:47:00]
to make sure that we focused on Hindraf
business meeting people as directly as we
[00:47:05]
could before we before we have this,
like I’d call it,
[00:47:08]
fourth person interaction
of a package sitting on the shelf.
[00:47:11]
Who knows, you know,
[00:47:12]
people picking it up may or may not
know who we are, where we are from,
[00:47:17]
and and allow more development to come
[00:47:20]
along, you know, in our in our story
before putting stuff in package and then
[00:47:26]
and then buy us time to find our
Firebreather Unicorn and package to
[00:47:31]
sell that.
[00:47:32]
At the end of the day, that really
watched the growth of our business.
[00:47:35]
That’s bigger.
[00:47:36]
So we really hunker down for about
a year and a half to do that.
[00:47:39]
That’s smaller scale direct
stuff with Keg’s.
[00:47:42]
Yeah.
[00:47:43]
And then once we put that fire breathing
unicorn on a package and got package out
[00:47:48]
of the shelves, we really
just we’re off to the races.
[00:47:51]
Nice.
[00:47:51]
I love that you built upon
your success like the.
[00:47:54]
Super cool.
That is awesome.
[00:47:57]
Um, what is the biggest challenge that
you’ve had to overcome through all this?
[00:48:02]
You’re talking nine plus years.
[00:48:10]
I don’t know, I I think
[00:48:15]
certainly
[00:48:16]
going from two thousand breweries to ten
thousand breweries
[00:48:20]
and from 10 Skewes to 100 Skewes a year,
wow, that that rapid pace of evolution,
[00:48:27]
you know, on the shelf
and just in the space has been
[00:48:33]
a pretty difficult regular pressure
to to overcome and to stay in front of
[00:48:39]
you know, I think we grow as as
individuals total wait a bit.
[00:48:43]
So just growing and turning from this,
you know, even though we still you know,
[00:48:48]
like I said, I feel like we’re infants,
like just getting going.
[00:48:51]
But the reality is we have gone from it’s
it’s just us to more of a company.
[00:48:56]
And we have anywhere from,
[00:49:00]
I don’t know, twenty five
to forty people on payroll.
[00:49:03]
Shourie covid we add more like 40.
[00:49:04]
Now we’ve been kind of trying to build
back some of those numbers, but
[00:49:08]
we do have a lot of people
involved in process involves.
[00:49:11]
So just evolving as structurally,
[00:49:13]
you know, how should we
best manage our selves and.
[00:49:15]
Right.
[00:49:16]
And,
and that that balance of of of leadership
[00:49:20]
and guidance and allowing
for growth in the company.
[00:49:23]
And
[00:49:25]
so I think,
[00:49:27]
yeah, there there’s the competition side,
the evolving side, just the people issues,
[00:49:31]
even as owners, the three of us,
the dynamics change quite a bit.
[00:49:35]
And I’d mention our friend
Alex a couple of times.
[00:49:38]
He’s he’s no longer
involved in the company.
[00:49:41]
So there’s a, you know,
evolving through that sort of stuff.
[00:49:44]
And
[00:49:47]
and now I think focus
is the big challenge.
[00:49:51]
That’s why I I heard I
think it was Jack Dorsey.
[00:49:56]
There was a reference in a podcast
or a book or something.
[00:49:58]
But Jack Dorsey, the Twitter CEO,
[00:50:01]
he I think it was him that is he refers
to himself as the chief editing officer,
[00:50:06]
that it really his job is to edit,
you know, we should be, you know,
[00:50:10]
the things that we have to say
no to as my job as a leader.
[00:50:13]
And that was a real like
that was a real light in my brain.
[00:50:17]
And, oh, my gosh, I need to stop throwing
out so many ideas and start taking away
[00:50:22]
ideas so that we can write
flourish with more focus.
[00:50:25]
So, Christine, I liked it.
[00:50:27]
Yeah, that’s clever.
[00:50:29]
Twitter seems to be doing OK.
Yeah.
[00:50:30]
We need to cash up to and square.
I think it’s him.
[00:50:34]
So he’s a pretty smart guy.
He’s in square.
[00:50:37]
He’s definitely doing OK.
Yeah.
[00:50:39]
And there’s money
and credit card processing.
[00:50:40]
Yeah.
And crypto cash selling.
[00:50:43]
Crypto stuff.
Yeah.
[00:50:44]
Nice.
Cool.
[00:50:46]
Well this has been super awesome.
Yeah.
[00:50:48]
Where can people find you.
I know.
[00:50:50]
Well we’re here but yeah.
[00:50:51]
The taproom here is on the east side
of Madison at thirty six ninety eight.
[00:50:54]
Kinsman Boulevard where Kitty corner
from the McDonald’s on fifty one.
[00:50:57]
The DMV is across the road there too.
[00:51:00]
So the taproom here open seven days a week
[00:51:03]
on the shelf are available all over
the state and a little bit of Minneapolis
[00:51:07]
and Rochester, Minnesota, and maybe some
other Midwest states over time here.
[00:51:12]
But primarily we’re focused on Wisconsin
[00:51:15]
and we’re we’re available
in every corner of the state,
[00:51:19]
Woodman’s QuickTrip,
[00:51:22]
and saves
[00:51:25]
all the all the big chains.
[00:51:26]
Wal-Mart’s really been a great partner
here over the last two years,
[00:51:29]
expanding our distribution festivals,
being a great partner,
[00:51:33]
other other independent shops
like the the Centex and the
[00:51:38]
now going to start leaving people out.
[00:51:39]
The Mac has been great, just tons of
[00:51:45]
but most mostly most places you can buy
[00:51:48]
beer in the state or
find something from us.
[00:51:50]
That’s awesome.
[00:51:50]
And Sulzer, I think that alone is
going to be an accomplishment.
[00:51:54]
Yeah, well, it’s a lot of work stories
[00:51:56]
of other breweries that are trying to
get in places and stuff like that.
[00:52:00]
Yeah, it’s a lot of work,
but I hit the ground, so it’s cool.
[00:52:03]
Yeah.
[00:52:04]
You guys have a website?
We do Karben4.com.
[00:52:07]
Yep.
[00:52:08]
Karben4. K-A-R-B-E-N, the number 4 .com is
[00:52:11]
our website, we’re on Facebook,
Twitter, Instagram, all that stuff.
[00:52:16]
Can people I don’t know what
the laws are with alcohol.
[00:52:18]
Can they order it online.
[00:52:20]
Unfortunately, they cannot.
They cannot.
[00:52:22]
I really, really wish one of my big
[00:52:25]
developmental things is finding
a way to figure out e-commerce.
[00:52:28]
And it’s a big topic in Kraft right now
[00:52:30]
because there are some states you
can mail to, but not in Wisconsin.
[00:52:33]
If we ever can, we will for sure.
[00:52:36]
But for now, you have to buy it here or
at one of our our customers locations.
[00:52:43]
So fair enough.
Yeah.
[00:52:45]
So currently in Madison, Wisconsin,
ready to take over the world.
[00:52:48]
Oh, sure.
[00:52:49]
As soon as the laws allow
intergalactic domination.
[00:52:51]
Yeah, it’s nothing less.
Yeah.
[00:52:53]
Well, thank you, Zach.
This is super cool.
[00:52:55]
This has been
[00:52:56]
Authentic Business Adventures the business
program that brings you the struggles,
[00:52:59]
stories and triumphant successes
of business owners across the land.
[00:53:03]
Authentic Business Adventures has brought
to you by Calls On Call offering call answering
[00:53:06]
services for businesses
all over the country at
[00:53:09]
callsoncall.com. As well as
[00:53:11]
Draw In Customers Business Coaching
offering business coaching services,
[00:53:15]
businesses looking for growth
and of course, The BOLD Business Book,
[00:53:18]
a book for the entrepreneur in all of us
available wherever fine books are sold.
[00:53:22]
I’d like to thank you out wonderful
listeners, as well as our guest,
[00:53:25]
Zach Koga, the co-owner
of Karben4 Brewing.
[00:53:29]
Zach, this is cool.
[00:53:31]
Yeah, thanks for coming in.
[00:53:32]
I’m excited all of a sudden very thirsty,
so I love coming to breweries.
[00:53:35]
This is so cool.
Yeah.
[00:53:37]
Um, can you tell us
the website one more time?
[00:53:39]
Karben4.com.
Awesome.
[00:53:41]
Thank you guys for this.
We’ll see you next week.
[00:53:43]
I want you to stay awesome.
[00:53:44]
And if you do nothing else,
enjoy your business.