How to Be An Electrician

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Cole McCloskey  – The Electrician, Inc.

 

Podcast Overview:

00:00 From Construction to Electrician Journey
06:10 “From Apprentice to Entrepreneur”
08:17 Succession and Growth Strategy
12:13 Reluctant but Generous Mentorship
15:27 Organic Leads Build Relationships
18:43 “Freedom Over Golden Shackles”
20:01 Retaining Good Employees
25:03 “Code Exceptions and Missteps”
28:53 Journeyman vs. Master Licenses
29:54 Master Electrician: Skill vs. Integrity
33:38 Madison Electrician Training Insights
36:32 Electrical Practices and Misconceptions
42:13 Trusting and Empowering Others
44:36 Prioritize Valuing Top Performers
46:51 “Embracing Appreciation in Business”
50:16 Strategic Approach to Tough Conversations
54:23 Entrepreneur Stories & Electrician Insights

Podcast Transcription:

Cole McCloskey [00:00:00]:
You do have to have a master electrician license to have your own business, because to have your own business to pull permits, you have to have a contractor’s license. You have to have a master license to get the contractor license. So if that’s a route someone wants to go, they do have to pass that exam.

James Kademan [00:00:14]:
So if they pass that test, then they have achieved master electrician status.

Cole McCloskey [00:00:18]:
Yeah, really above that, you can get into credentials for being an inspector if you want. The master exam is the first step towards that. If that’s route you want to go.

James Kademan [00:00:30]:
You have found Authentic Business Adventures, the business program that brings you the struggle stories and triumphant successes of business owners across the land. We are locally underwritten by the bank of Sun Prairie and downloadable audio episodes can be found in the podcast link found at https://drawincustomers.com Today we’re welcoming, preparing to learn from Cole McCluskey of the Electrician Inc. And we are talking construction, electrician, electricity, all the good stuff. So Cole, how is it going today?

Cole McCloskey [00:00:59]:
Going very well. Thank you for having me.

James Kademan [00:01:00]:
Let’s talk about the foundation. What is the Electrician Inc.?

Cole McCloskey [00:01:04]:
So we are a full services electrical contractor. We do jobs large and small across all sectors from residential to commercial to industrial. We do also fire alarm and low voltage access control systems. So we cover a wide variety of the market in that way. But just the full service is electrical contractors is what we are.

James Kademan [00:01:26]:
Right on. And how did you get into that?

Cole McCloskey [00:01:29]:
Well, I grew up in the industry, so my father has worked for a construction company for his entire life. So growing up, right about the time I was old enough to grab a hammer and swing it, he was teaching me how to do that. So that was pretty cool to grow up in the industry and just be interested in what it’s like to work with your hands. So I would help him out with roofs and woodworking projects and remodels and all kinds of different things. That was, that was really cool. And so I knew I wanted to get into a field that allowed me to do that when I became an adult. And long story short, I ended up through a family friend, finding the Electrician Incorporated and talking to the owner, who’s now my business partner. So I’m sure we’ll get into that piece of things.

Cole McCloskey [00:02:17]:
But just worked there for a summer in high school and fell in love with it and just really enjoyed not only working with my hands, but kind of having to learn how electricity works and circuitry and controls and things like that. It’s just always really intrigued me and ever Since I started, I’ve just really enjoyed it and loved it.

James Kademan [00:02:39]:
Nice. I played a little bit in the construction game and I gotta say, electrician, electric. Electrical stuff seems like way more fun than plumbing.

Cole McCloskey [00:02:50]:
It depends. But yeah, I think for the most part, especially the service side, I think plumbing can get it to be a little bit of a nasty job sometimes.

James Kademan [00:02:58]:
I would much rather replace the light switch than unclog a toilet.

Cole McCloskey [00:03:01]:
Yes, definitely.

James Kademan [00:03:02]:
So that’s just where I’m at.

Cole McCloskey [00:03:04]:
So I think you made the right respect for plumbers because.

James Kademan [00:03:06]:
Absolutely.

Cole McCloskey [00:03:07]:
Because of that.

James Kademan [00:03:08]:
You know, it’s funny, I was hanging wire at this bank, low voltage stuff. And there’s a guy that was up, way up high, his fancy H type thing, and he’s putting in the sprinkler pipe.

Cole McCloskey [00:03:19]:
Sure.

James Kademan [00:03:20]:
Like the iron sprinkler pipe. He’s got a thread it and all that kind of stuff. And it’s just him up there. And I’m like, I gotta shake this wire. Right. This low voltage, super flimsy, easiest thing in the world to do. And I’m like, huh, I guess I won there. Yeah.

Cole McCloskey [00:03:38]:
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. We end up running rigid pipe like that for certain things, but. But yeah, that. Just the noise of the fittings that they put on that sprinkler pipe. My brother actually is a sprinkler fitter.

James Kademan [00:03:51]:
Oh, he is. Okay.

Cole McCloskey [00:03:52]:
Yeah. So he. Him and I, you know, give each other grief and good fun about the different trades. But. But yeah, for them there’s a lot of. There’s a good combination, I think, in. In the electrical field of using your hands. You know, it is hard work or can be really hard work at times, but there’s a lot of thinking ahead using your brain, really thinking through an installation before you start it, those kinds of things.

Cole McCloskey [00:04:18]:
And I just, like I said before, I really have always liked that piece of it.

James Kademan [00:04:21]:
Yeah. That’s cool. So is the Electrician Inc. Franchise or is it just.

Cole McCloskey [00:04:26]:
No, we’re actually not. No. It was founded by my business partner, Brent Yockler, by himself in 2004. Okay. He was one man and one van. He’s got a last name that’s a little bit hard to pronounce and spell and. And I just don’t know that he wanted to be like every. I don’t think he wanted to be like everyone else and have, you know, yacht or electric.

Cole McCloskey [00:04:50]:
Right.

James Kademan [00:04:50]:
Sure.

Cole McCloskey [00:04:52]:
He. He just came up with the electrician ink and it’s. It stuck with us and it’s done. Well, there’s no Confusion about what we do.

James Kademan [00:05:00]:
Not at all. Right. Unless you guys did plumbing and they’re like, wait, right.

Cole McCloskey [00:05:03]:
Yeah, yeah, this is a little weird.

James Kademan [00:05:04]:
Yeah.

Cole McCloskey [00:05:04]:
So as we’ve expanded our market services, we’ve, we’ve or different scopes of work in, into kind of the more specialty. We do some specialty testing and maintenance and safety compliance within the electrical realm. And then obviously we’re getting into more and more of the low voltage systems. So we’ve talked about certain marketing techniques that might better explain that.

James Kademan [00:05:28]:
Sure, that’s fair.

Cole McCloskey [00:05:29]:
But. But in general, I think we’ve got decent brand recognition, specifically in Dane county with the construction side and the service side of things. And it’s going well for us.

James Kademan [00:05:42]:
Nice. So tell me a story about how you bought in as a partner.

Cole McCloskey [00:05:46]:
Yeah. So I started with the electrician, as I said, for a summer in high school and loved it and so got to develop a good relationship with. With Brent. And as I went through my last year of high school, I really kind of made the decision that this is what I was going to pursue, at least at first, that field.

James Kademan [00:06:09]:
Being a partner.

Cole McCloskey [00:06:10]:
Well, no, no, no, I’m sorry, the field, the electrical field. And so I talked with him about the possibility of doing my apprenticeship schooling and training through the company and he said absolutely, 100% would love that. So graduated high school on a Friday, came to work on Monday for him and worked my way through the apprenticeship program, which was five years. Ended up testing out for my master electrician license. And then at that point I actually decided that I really wanted to go and start my own business. I’ve always really enjoyed freedom and not. I’m just not a person that wants to punch a clock. It’s nothing against people that do or anything like that.

Cole McCloskey [00:06:59]:
It’s just for me it was. I would rather deal with any of the headaches or the challenges of owning or being on my own or being able to kind of control my own destiny than I would having the more secure route. And it’s pretty common with entrepreneurs. So that was.

James Kademan [00:07:18]:
It better be. Yeah. Right.

Cole McCloskey [00:07:19]:
Yeah. I mean you have to, you have to have that, that mentality towards it. And so I left on really good terms in 2016. And so it was about 2011 that I started. It was about 2016, early 2017, that I decided to go out on my own and left on really good terms. I’ve always believed in not burning bridges as much as you can in business and just in life, try not to ever burn bridges. So. So Brent and I stayed really close and he was actually.

Cole McCloskey [00:07:51]:
Even though I was sort of going out and being a competitor, he was really a mentor for me. He would allow me to. We’d meet up for a drink once in a while. Him and I also have some real estate endeavors outside of the electrician. So we would meet and talk and he would let me bounce all the things off of him that I was doing wrong and he would give me some good advice. So. So that was good. So we kept a good relationship.

Cole McCloskey [00:08:17]:
And then a couple years later, we, you know, I think he had decided that he wanted to really try to grow the company. He had done a good job of growing it from himself to, you know, having. I think at the time that I had left, there was roughly 30, 35 employees, doing some bigger projects, doing some different types of work. So that was. So he had done an excellent job on his own, really getting it there and building a good team around him. But I think he wanted to have someone to help continue that growth and thinking long term about what does it look like in the future and having someone as a succession plan. So we discussed that for a relatively short amount of time and then decided that it would be a good idea for both of us. And I know for me, and I think he would say the same thing if he was sitting here right now.

Cole McCloskey [00:09:12]:
It’s been the best decision that we’ve made in the course of five years. You know, the first five years that we were partners in the business, we tripled the size of the company and expanded into different markets. And I’ve built an excellent team around us. Our team today is just excellent, both on the field and on the management side. So that’s the short version of. There’s a lot of things in between there that we could go into, but that’s how the progression came from me working there when we were really small. I think when I started, we had four employees, and now we have almost 100. Dang.

James Kademan [00:09:52]:
I had no idea it was that big.

Cole McCloskey [00:09:54]:
Yeah.

James Kademan [00:09:54]:
Okay, well, congrats. That’s awesome.

Cole McCloskey [00:09:56]:
Appreciate it.

James Kademan [00:09:57]:
Tell me a story. You started your own thing. So did that not take off or what were the challenges?

Cole McCloskey [00:10:03]:
No, no, we did. I did pretty well. I had no. Honestly, I had no real idea what I was doing from. From a business management standpoint. I knew the electrical.

James Kademan [00:10:12]:
Totally typical.

Cole McCloskey [00:10:13]:
It was just, hey, I need to charge more than I’m. Than I’m paying to do this stuff, right? And obviously, knowing what I know now, there was. There was a lot of things I could have done differently, but I do I don’t at all regret doing that. I think it was an excellent experience for me. Just, you know, there were jobs where I. We did really well. There were jobs where I found out just how much I didn’t know how to estimate at the time or didn’t know how to manage costs or whatever the case might be. But we.

Cole McCloskey [00:10:45]:
Overall, I did very, very well. But it was just one of those things where I was working 80, 90, 100 hours a week, you know, 40 or 50 in the field. And then I’m the estimator, I’m the. I’m the controller, I’m the cfo, I’m the everything, you know, project manager, service manager. I was everything. And I did have four employees when we got back, you know, when I came back in as a partner. But when you’re that small, it’s just really hard. You don’t have the bandwidth to have, you know, 10 or 12 office people to help you with everything.

Cole McCloskey [00:11:23]:
I think that the quality of life improvement combined with the fact that I knew that there was just a lot of knowledge gaps that I had around the management of the business and management of even the work, you know, just the pure job management and tools you can use and tips and tricks and things like that. So.

James Kademan [00:11:47]:
So when you went off on your own, did you hire employees right away or you built up?

Cole McCloskey [00:11:52]:
Yeah, I hired one right away and then kind of slowly did a used temporary labor here and there and then ended up hiring a couple more as time went on.

James Kademan [00:12:02]:
Okay, how did you convince that first one to join you? Because you’re like, hey, man, I’ve never had a business. I’m electrician master. Jump on the bus with me, let’s go take over the world.

Cole McCloskey [00:12:13]:
Well, I, I found a. That’s a whole nother. That’s a very long story in of itself, but basically, one of my customers, her son was 16 or 15 when I. And I was just by myself in my truck, you know, doing, Doing some electrical work for her. And she’s like, my son really wants to be an electrician. And I was kind of having one of those days where I’m like, God, I really don’t need a job shadower right now. I just need to get this done. But I was, you know, I let him shadow me and kind of ask questions and things like that.

Cole McCloskey [00:12:44]:
And he would help me out on like, side jobs or doing things on the weekends. And he just was a really hard worker and took to it and still great friends with him to this day, but he was the first employee. So it was easier to convince him because he had already worked with me, and I think he could see where my head was at. I was very willing to share with him the reason, because he would ask me, why you. Why are you doing this? Like, why aren’t you just working your 40 hours and going home and.

James Kademan [00:13:16]:
Fair question, fair question.

Cole McCloskey [00:13:17]:
Right. Because at the time, I was working full time and trying to build my own customer base.

James Kademan [00:13:21]:
Oh, wow.

Cole McCloskey [00:13:22]:
This before I had left and went on my own. That’s. That’s how I built up the customer base, was doing side work, essentially. And he would ask me, why. Why are you doing this? Right. Again, Val, fair question. But I would explain that this is how I want to ultimately build my own business and things like that. That was how I got my first employee.

Cole McCloskey [00:13:46]:
And then, like I say, I utilized some temporary labor resources. And then actually I had. Then, as time went on, and I think people that I still knew from the electrician could see that, oh, this guy actually, this guy’s actually seems like he’s making it. And a couple of people reached out to me and wanted to work for me. And so I would call Brent and say, hey, just letting you know, this guy came to me. That sort of thing. And that’s how the employee relationship came in. I think it would be pretty.

Cole McCloskey [00:14:27]:
It would have been more difficult if I didn’t build those relationships kind of ahead of time and, you know, just convincing some, you know, random person to just kind of, hey, we’re gonna. We’re gonna make this happen.

James Kademan [00:14:41]:
Someone answering the question. So you’re doing. When you went off on your own, how would you market?

Cole McCloskey [00:14:51]:
Honestly was purely, like, word of mouth. So word spread that, like, yeah, organic Cole’s out there.

James Kademan [00:14:59]:
He’s got his master electrician license.

Cole McCloskey [00:15:01]:
Yep. And I had a business name, and so they, you know, they would just refer my business and then it would kind of go from there. And, you know, we could get into the importance of networking or how I feel the importance of networking has impacted my life again in the entrepreneurial community. I think everybody would agree with that to some level.

James Kademan [00:15:22]:
Yeah. It’s not only who you know, but who knows you.

Cole McCloskey [00:15:25]:
Exactly. And then who do they know?

James Kademan [00:15:27]:
Correct.

Cole McCloskey [00:15:27]:
Do a good job, for one. I mean, I can’t. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve done an hour service call, whether it was me when I was on my own or us at the electrician. We do an hour service call for someone, and that leads to a multi year, you know, relationship with whomever whether it be someone that works at a factory that’s always, you know, needing our help or a large scale GC or you know, whatever the case might be. So that was, that was my only marketing though was just organic leads.

James Kademan [00:16:00]:
That’s cool.

Cole McCloskey [00:16:00]:
Yeah.

James Kademan [00:16:01]:
I want to take, just take a break from the small business side and just learn about the electrician side. That the path to become an electrician. So you mentioned you get into high school, you graduate high school, you go for your master’s. Tell me, because I don’t know the game as far as the apprenticeship and earning the master’s license. There’s steps in there, right?

Cole McCloskey [00:16:21]:
There is.

James Kademan [00:16:21]:
And they’re pretty rigid I think. Right. You can’t just call yourself an electrician.

Cole McCloskey [00:16:25]:
No, no, I don’t think you can.

James Kademan [00:16:27]:
Right.

Cole McCloskey [00:16:28]:
People do. People do.

James Kademan [00:16:29]:
It’s shocking. Sorry, that’s bad. Dad jokes.

Cole McCloskey [00:16:34]:
Dad jokes.

James Kademan [00:16:35]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Cole McCloskey [00:16:36]:
I’ll try to come up with as we talk here. So the process is that you, you start out as a beginner electrician and.

James Kademan [00:16:46]:
It’S just a guy helping.

Cole McCloskey [00:16:47]:
Just a guy. A helper. Helper.

James Kademan [00:16:49]:
Hanging boxes on those 2x.

Cole McCloskey [00:16:51]:
Some companies call the pre. Apprentice. The same thing. Yeah. Help, you know, basic stuff. Nail on boxes, put in outlets with, you know, de energized.

James Kademan [00:17:01]:
Nothing live. Okay.

Cole McCloskey [00:17:02]:
Nothing live. Nothing live. And then how we work and how most companies work is you get selected. So you have to prove yourself for a little bit. We typically make people work for six to 12 months for us before we select them to be in the apprenticeship program because it’s a privilege. I mean we’re paying for schooling. We’re paying them.

James Kademan [00:17:23]:
Oh, you are?

Cole McCloskey [00:17:23]:
Yeah, yeah. And that’s, that’s very. Not, not everyone does that. And people obviously structure their benefits in all kinds of different ways. But, but we’ve, we’ve decided that that’s, that’s the best route for us. So when we select someone, we, we pay for their tuition expense, which is relatively minimal compared to a four year. Like a four year.

James Kademan [00:17:45]:
Yeah. What is. I don’t even know.

Cole McCloskey [00:17:46]:
A couple Around a, you know, a couple thousand a year.

James Kademan [00:17:49]:
Okay. So nothing crazy.

Cole McCloskey [00:17:51]:
Yeah, yeah.

James Kademan [00:17:52]:
Compared to $200,000 for.

Cole McCloskey [00:17:53]:
Right. For a four year. Right, right. But it’s still, I mean, it’s a chunk of money, especially starting out. When you’re starting out a career, you know, that’s a, that’s a lot of money.

James Kademan [00:18:02]:
Yeah. Let me pause you for a second there. Do you have that employee sign something or agree like, hey, you’re gonna stick with us for Five years or something like that. Or you’re just hoping that they stick around.

Cole McCloskey [00:18:14]:
You know, we don’t. And I wouldn’t necessarily put it like we’re hoping they’re gonna. We obviously do hope they stick around. But my motto and part of our culture really, since day one, before I was even at the company, has been one of if we want team members there that want to be there. So if someone wants to move because their spouse has a better job opportunity, I don’t want you to not do that because you’re tied to this agreement with me.

James Kademan [00:18:43]:
Fair.

Cole McCloskey [00:18:43]:
I don’t want you, you know, if you decide that there’s a different career path for you or a different company for that matter. I don’t want people beholden with golden shackles because they feel like they signed this agreement, they’re have to buy it out or whatever. That’s just our motto. Some people, there’s definitely companies that do both and all kinds of things in between. And I don’t think there’s a right or wrong way, but I think for us, that’s just what we resonate with the most.

James Kademan [00:19:13]:
It’s been successful.

Cole McCloskey [00:19:14]:
Yeah, it’s been successful. It’s been successful. We will have people from time to time, for whatever reason that do, sure, you know, decide to go a different direction, but it’s worked out for us and that’s kind of how we handle it.

James Kademan [00:19:29]:
Yeah, that’s fair. I remember way back when I was a beer delivery driver.

Cole McCloskey [00:19:33]:
Oh, sure.

James Kademan [00:19:34]:
And I got the job. I didn’t have a cdl. They did the training and went through the testing and stuff like that to get my cdl. And there was no, hey, man, you got to stick with us for a certain amount. And to a point, there was somewhat of a revolving door. I think you guys get like 100 people a year CDL and maybe 20 are sticking around. But I mean, it wasn’t anywhere near that expensive. But there was still an investment.

Cole McCloskey [00:19:58]:
Sure.

James Kademan [00:19:59]:
And they’re just hoping you stick around.

Cole McCloskey [00:20:01]:
And I think too, like, you talk to a lot of business owners in a lot of different industries that, or I have at least that tell me the same thing. Turnover is not cheap no matter what. No, it’s very, very costly. And the hidden costs are hard to quantify a lot of times with that, definitely. So I think for us, the focus has always been how do we retain as many people, as many good people as possible, regardless if they’re an apprentice, a master electrician, anywhere in between. We want the good people to stay.

James Kademan [00:20:31]:
I Love that you said good people, not just people.

Cole McCloskey [00:20:33]:
Right.

James Kademan [00:20:35]:
Less than good. We can.

Cole McCloskey [00:20:36]:
Well, or just. Again, there’s people that maybe they’re trying this out as a career path and they just don’t like it. They might not necessarily be a bad person.

James Kademan [00:20:45]:
Fair. I understand what you’re saying.

Cole McCloskey [00:20:48]:
But yes, we want people that want to be there, want to do the work, want to show up on time, all those things.

James Kademan [00:20:55]:
All right, so I interrupted you. So you continue on. You got the person that started out in there, they’re doing essentially the grunt work, but just to get a feel for what has to be done and stuff is not live at that point. And then take me down that road more.

Cole McCloskey [00:21:10]:
Sure. So you go to the schooling portion one day every other week, one full day. So an eight hour day every two weeks during the normal school year.

James Kademan [00:21:21]:
So usually are these local in person, remote.

Cole McCloskey [00:21:23]:
They’re local in person.

James Kademan [00:21:24]:
Okay.

Cole McCloskey [00:21:26]:
The campus that our apprentices go to is Matc Commercial Ave or Madison College.

James Kademan [00:21:31]:
Commercial Ave. All right, me too. Are they physically connecting wires kind of thing or is it more textbook type stuff?

Cole McCloskey [00:21:40]:
It’s a mix of both. I would say in the schooling portion, it’s more textbook or code book. So we code book. We have a set of codes that we have to follow. There’s a set of standards that’s the bare minimum for electrical installations. Plumbers have it, fire protection, sprinkler fitters have it. Their own version of that. But we have state codes and the National Electrical code is what the state adopts.

James Kademan [00:22:07]:
How big are we talking for this book?

Cole McCloskey [00:22:09]:
It’s about like that.

James Kademan [00:22:10]:
That’s a healthy sized book.

Cole McCloskey [00:22:12]:
Yeah.

James Kademan [00:22:12]:
All right.

Cole McCloskey [00:22:12]:
Yeah.

James Kademan [00:22:13]:
And that’s the national. And then the state and county and all that.

Cole McCloskey [00:22:16]:
The state just adopts the national code and then makes certain small minor adjustments usually. So there’s certain things in the National Electrical Code that either don’t apply to Wisconsin or maybe Wisconsin needs to be a little more strict on because of our weather conditions. They’re all. There’s all kinds of different factors or sometimes the state just for whatever reason, politics or whatever else decides to adopt something or not that’s in there. But generally speaking, the National Electrical Code’s the main code book that we use and have to abide by that’s adopted into law.

James Kademan [00:22:53]:
Remind me to ask you about Romex, but keep going.

Cole McCloskey [00:22:55]:
Okay, sounds good. So that’s a lot of the code portion is a lot of what is covered in the classroom. They will go through different technical capabilities where you might be hooking up some Controls or terminating certain things. But a lot of it’s the code to get you into the code. Understanding what the code means, applying the code to different situations that you’re going to run into in the field and preparing you to ultimately take the state test when you’re ready for it.

James Kademan [00:23:26]:
All right, and how big of a deal is this test from how easy or difficult is it to pass?

Cole McCloskey [00:23:32]:
I don’t know statistics right now. I know when I took mine, I believe the first time pass rate for the Master’s exam was 13%. So it’s relatively.

James Kademan [00:23:41]:
13% pass.

Cole McCloskey [00:23:43]:
Wow.

James Kademan [00:23:44]:
Yeah, I’m gonna call that a kind of good thing because that means that they’re strict.

Cole McCloskey [00:23:48]:
Yeah, it does.

James Kademan [00:23:50]:
Or I guess on the flip side, maybe the class needs to be tweaked. I don’t know.

Cole McCloskey [00:23:53]:
Well, I think it’s. You want the test to be. You want to make sure the people that are taking the test understand the code.

James Kademan [00:24:02]:
Yeah. I mean, the other side is that either they die or somebody else or there’s a fire or something like that. Right?

Cole McCloskey [00:24:06]:
Yeah.

James Kademan [00:24:07]:
Like, hey, we’re passing everyone, but half the buildings are burning down.

Cole McCloskey [00:24:10]:
Yeah, no, no, we don’t want that. And so it’s a difficult exam.

James Kademan [00:24:17]:
How long of an exam?

Cole McCloskey [00:24:18]:
It’s four hours, 50 questions, multiple choice, open book four.

James Kademan [00:24:24]:
Oh, okay. Wow.

Cole McCloskey [00:24:26]:
Yeah. You wouldn’t think it would be as difficult as it is.

James Kademan [00:24:32]:
You’re talking 13 questions an hour, multiple choice.

Cole McCloskey [00:24:35]:
Yeah, but the multiple choice questions, the funny part of it is the state purposely writes the test. And I’ve talked to people that help write these tests and they’ll tell you, they will look through. So you’ll have to look at different sections of the code and how they correlate to each other and then they’ll be. So I’ll just use a random example. Let’s just say this is not true. So anybody listening? This is what I’m about to say. I’m just making this up. This is not true.

Cole McCloskey [00:25:03]:
So NM Cable or Romex needs to be stapled every four and a half feet. Well, the code might have an exception that says it doesn’t need to be stapled every four and a half feet. In this certain condition, it needs to be stapled every six feet. So then they’ll write a question that sort of leads you to the first paragraph and if you don’t look at the exception, you’re going to get it wrong. So they try to trip you up. And that’s a relatively easy example, I guess, what I just shared. But when you get into calculations where you’re trying to calculate, how big of a service do I need to put on this building? If you misstep because you didn’t look at an exception on step two and it’s a six step process you’re going through to calculate this service, your answer is wrong. And they’ll try to like, they’ll figure it out like, okay, if we do it wrong this way, this is the answer we’re going to make that C.

Cole McCloskey [00:25:59]:
Really the answer is D. It seems like it should. Just hearing that it’s 50 questions multiple choice, you wouldn’t think it would be.

James Kademan [00:26:09]:
As difficult see across the board, but.

Cole McCloskey [00:26:12]:
That’S how they do. But it’s good because those things are important. Looking at everything and making sure you’re doing things the right way is very important, especially when you’re designing. We do a lot of design build work so we provide essentially the base level engineering of the distribution inside of a building. When you’re doing that, it’s very, very important that you understand how to do those calculations, how to look at different areas of the code and understand what it means and how to do things the right way.

James Kademan [00:26:45]:
Fair? Fair. Alright. So somebody passes this test after taking it, is there a limitation or time between each test? Say they failed or they have to wait a month or three months or something?

Cole McCloskey [00:26:55]:
To my knowledge, no. The whole testing process with the state has changed a little bit since I’ve done it. But I don’t believe there’s a waiting period. You just, there’s certain time slots. You have to sign up for that. It’s available, but I believe you can sign up immediately. If you fail it once, you can sign up again right away.

James Kademan [00:27:11]:
All right. And is the test in person?

Cole McCloskey [00:27:13]:
Yes.

James Kademan [00:27:14]:
Okay. Yeah, got it. So you got to wait for the next test thing or whatever. Okay.

Cole McCloskey [00:27:18]:
Yep.

James Kademan [00:27:18]:
All right, so somebody finally passes that test.

Cole McCloskey [00:27:20]:
Yep.

James Kademan [00:27:21]:
What’s the next step?

Cole McCloskey [00:27:23]:
You know, that’s really up to them. The sky’s kind of the limit at that point. You do have to have a master electrician license to have your own business, because to have your own business, to pull permits, you have to have a contractor’s license, you have to have a master license to get the contractor license. So if that’s a route someone wants to go, they do have to pass that exam.

James Kademan [00:27:44]:
So if they pass that test, then they have achieved master electrician status.

Cole McCloskey [00:27:49]:
Yeah. Really above that, you can get into credentials for being an inspector if you want. The master exam is the first step towards that. If that’s the route you want to go. Being in the field, you know, it’s just. It’s one of those things that it does demand a little bit more compensation in general, I would say. And then it does help if you’re going to be in leadership, Even if you’re a foreman or a lead service technician or anything like that in the field, just having that knowledge base and having that broad code understanding is very helpful.

James Kademan [00:28:23]:
Got it.

Cole McCloskey [00:28:24]:
So from there, you know, the sky’s the limit, but it’s really more. At that point, it’s more about where do you want to go? Do you want to stay in the field and be a field leader? Do you want to be in the project management side? Estimating. There’s a lot of different paths to go once you’re kind of past the apprenticeship and able to take the master’s exam. And there is a journeyman, you’ve probably heard of journeyman electrician.

James Kademan [00:28:52]:
I have, yeah.

Cole McCloskey [00:28:53]:
So that’s sort of like in the trades. I would compare that to like a bachelor’s degree. Right. So there’s nothing wrong with having that credential, Especially if you’re in the field and you’re. Even if you’re a foreman or leading a large crew, having a journeyman’s license is great. It’s essentially to show that you know the code and how it applies to putting the installation in the correct way. The master’s exam really gets more into calculations and things that you’re going to run into if you’re designing or mainly design calculations, kind of the next level above. But both licenses are acceptable.

James Kademan [00:29:38]:
So is journeyman versus master electrician lateral? Is one higher or lower than the other one?

Cole McCloskey [00:29:46]:
As far as, like in our company, like.

James Kademan [00:29:48]:
No, no, no. As far as. Just. If I’m going to hire an electrician, do I want to look for master electrician or journeyman or someone that’s got both?

Cole McCloskey [00:29:54]:
If you’re going to. If I’m hiring someone for our company, a master electrician is a little bit higher, but it’s not. A lot of it depends on the person, too. So I’ve met master electricians out there that they know what they’re supposed to do, but they, for whatever reason, choose not to do it, or maybe they’re not as motivated. So I don’t want to negate the fact that it is a very high credential, very difficult to get there, and it’s an accomplishment to have, but it’s more important that the person who has it keeps their professional integrity and their Work ethic and things like that for me as an employer, and then for, like, if you were hiring an electrician to come into your home and do work, if it’s a company, they have to have a master electrician to be able to pull a permit.

James Kademan [00:30:51]:
Got it.

Cole McCloskey [00:30:52]:
So, like, our company operates under my master’s license. Any other electrical contractor out there should have a master electrician who’s the main master electrician for the company that essentially, in some ways, takes responsibility for the work that’s getting done.

James Kademan [00:31:09]:
Okay.

Cole McCloskey [00:31:10]:
So that’s kind of how that works. But if that company sends a journeyman to your home to do work, I wouldn’t judge them as being lesser than by any means because they have that credential.

James Kademan [00:31:23]:
And journeyman. Is there a test to become a journeyman?

Cole McCloskey [00:31:25]:
There is, yeah. So same type of test. More questions. So 100 questions and four hours, all multiple choice. So you get less time per question. But you also. Again, I’m not saying it’s necessarily an easy test, but it’s less. Like.

Cole McCloskey [00:31:44]:
Like I said, in the master’s exam, they like to make you go to all these different sections of the code, and calculations are really heavy, whereas the journeyman’s test generally is more just understanding different wiring methods and codes that are more applicable to what you do in the field, generally speaking.

James Kademan [00:32:06]:
Got it. Do people get both?

Cole McCloskey [00:32:08]:
Mm.

James Kademan [00:32:08]:
Okay.

Cole McCloskey [00:32:08]:
You can get both.

James Kademan [00:32:09]:
Is that common or necessary?

Cole McCloskey [00:32:11]:
Yeah, I mean, I’ve had. So I took both as I. So I took my journeyman test first, and then I think it was a year. A little over a year later, I took my master’s. So now I only keep my master’s license current because there’s no real perfect segue.

James Kademan [00:32:25]:
Because I want to know, is there continuing ed and stuff like that or to maintain.

Cole McCloskey [00:32:29]:
Yep.

James Kademan [00:32:29]:
Okay.

Cole McCloskey [00:32:30]:
Yep. So 24 hours every two years.

James Kademan [00:32:33]:
Okay.

Cole McCloskey [00:32:34]:
I usually take more because we do a lot of internal training.

James Kademan [00:32:37]:
Sure.

Cole McCloskey [00:32:38]:
So I usually have way more seniors.

James Kademan [00:32:40]:
You want to know what’s going on, right?

Cole McCloskey [00:32:41]:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it’s important because, I mean, even. Even in the time I’ve been in the trade, the code book has changed. And so the National Electrical Code’s published every three years. The state can choose to adopt whichever version it wants. So currently in Wisconsin, we’re on the 2017 code, actually.

James Kademan [00:33:00]:
Okay.

Cole McCloskey [00:33:01]:
Yeah, yeah. And so they’re thinking. From what I hear, they’re thinking of adopting the 2023 or 2026 code next. Well, the 2026 code, they’ve actually restructured the whole layout of the Code book. So it’s going to be pretty important because I’m still going to be in the industry. I promise you that. I learn, me and all the other journeymen and master electricians, at least learn the new structure and learn what the updates are and certain things that have changed.

James Kademan [00:33:31]:
Got it. Interesting. And to get continuing ed, are you going to trade shows or is it online?

Cole McCloskey [00:33:38]:
There’s a lot of options online now. I learn best in person. So the city of Madison as an example. The city of Madison electrical inspectors actually do a great job of putting on training that you have to pay a relatively nominal fee for. But they put on a training that’s generally acceptable for continuing education. And it’s usually geared towards things that they’re seeing out there and what they’re looking to see and common mistakes and common things that they see that are done wrong. And it’s really helpful because as an electrician then you know, like, okay, I’m working in the same area with these guys and this is what they’re looking for. And this is some common misinterpretations or whatever the case might be.

James Kademan [00:34:24]:
And I suppose those are the people that are inspecting your stuff.

Cole McCloskey [00:34:27]:
Right.

James Kademan [00:34:28]:
They’re under the same umbrella, so it’s probably good to learn from them. So you know specifically what they’re looking for or the mistakes that they’re seeing. Yeah, you raised an interesting point. Now, what are some of the common mistakes you see? Just either in the field or if you open up a box and you’re like, oh, a homeowner did this on their own.

Cole McCloskey [00:34:48]:
So I think the most common one I’ve seen with the homeowner, the homeowner one is if you ever put in like a outlet or a switch, they have little stab it connectors. Yeah, don’t use those would be my suggestion.

James Kademan [00:35:02]:
Cause they come out.

Cole McCloskey [00:35:05]:
Over time, they like to come loose. And I’ve seen a lot of. I can’t say I’ve ever seen a fire actually start, but I’ve seen it close to where the whole outlet was melted. Oh, the whole receptacle was melted.

James Kademan [00:35:18]:
Oh, wow. Okay.

Cole McCloskey [00:35:19]:
Obviously that’s a shock hazard and a fire hazard, so just don’t do that. We see that a lot. It’s just something we won’t do. Even though it’s legal, it’s code compliant, it’s listed and tested with that. It’s just not, in my opinion, it’s not a good idea. So that would be one using Romex, which like I said, technical terms on M cable, but everybody Calls it Romex. Kind of like Kleenex.

James Kademan [00:35:47]:
I think Romex must be a brand.

Cole McCloskey [00:35:49]:
Romex is a brand. So it’s like tissue and Kleenex. Everybody calls it Kleenex, but it’s really tissues. They using that outdoors, outdoor?

James Kademan [00:35:59]:
Okay.

Cole McCloskey [00:36:00]:
Yeah. No, can’t use that outdoors. It’s not weather rated.

James Kademan [00:36:03]:
The reason I wanted to ask you about Romex was I was on some forum and I want to say there’s a guy in Chicago or Illinois somewhere that they must not be able to use Romex. They must have to have everything.

Cole McCloskey [00:36:15]:
Chicago thing.

James Kademan [00:36:16]:
They have to have everything in conduit.

Cole McCloskey [00:36:18]:
Yep.

James Kademan [00:36:18]:
Okay. Tell me more about that.

Cole McCloskey [00:36:22]:
I’ve heard various stories of where that originated. Some say it was the Great Fire of Chicago back in the 1800s.

James Kademan [00:36:30]:
They didn’t have Romex back in the 1800s. Right. They didn’t have.

Cole McCloskey [00:36:32]:
I didn’t think they had electricity. So I don’t know if that was. They might have had knob and tube around that time, but it’s just kind of stuck with them. I don’t know exactly what the real reason is, but I’ve seen people that come up here that are just baffled that we run an M cable Romex. To me it’s about making sure that you’re using it in the right way, in the right application and installing it properly. It’s just like anything 50 years ago. Plumbing was all copper or steel and sure that I’m not a plumber, but I’m sure if you install PEX tubing the wrong way or cpvc or whatever in the wrong manner, it has a chance of leaking. It’s no different with.

Cole McCloskey [00:37:27]:
I don’t have a problem at all with using an M cable Romex. It’s just making sure that you’re using it in the right application and installing it properly. That’s just my opinion.

James Kademan [00:37:37]:
Yeah. It was interesting because I didn’t know that Chicago had the thing where. No, no Romex.

Cole McCloskey [00:37:43]:
Big time.

James Kademan [00:37:43]:
It was all conduit everywhere.

Cole McCloskey [00:37:45]:
Yep.

James Kademan [00:37:46]:
So which I don’t know.

Cole McCloskey [00:37:48]:
I mean, it’s perfectly fine.

James Kademan [00:37:50]:
There’s nothing probably better, I imagine there’s it from my point of view. I’m like, it’s tougher for someone to put a screw through. It is conduit rather than Romex behind a chunk of drywall.

Cole McCloskey [00:38:00]:
Yeah, it is. That’s why for us we have to protect that, that Romex from. From that if it’s too close, like if it’s drilled through a stud too close to the front, then an inch and an eighth, you Gotta put a nail plate so that someone can’t shoot a screw through it. But yeah, it’s not a bad installation by any means. As long as I’ve seen conduit not installed properly though, too. I bet that can cause a real issue. I bet it’s just. It’s kind of a funny thing in that area that’s just.

James Kademan [00:38:33]:
They’re big on interesting people can mess anything up, right?

Cole McCloskey [00:38:36]:
Yeah.

James Kademan [00:38:37]:
Tell me, so how did the business go when you joined back with the electrician as a partner? Who came to who and then how did that conversation go?

Cole McCloskey [00:38:49]:
So I would say Brent came to me originally. The conversation was interesting. I didn’t necessarily see it coming at the time, and it just gave me a lot to think about. It was one of those conversations that you leave and you’re like, okay, this is interesting. This is an interesting opportunity.

James Kademan [00:39:10]:
Big fork in the road there.

Cole McCloskey [00:39:12]:
Yeah, big fork in the road. And just one of those things that’s going to change ultimately the course of your whole career. So it was worth considering, but it didn’t take long before starting to really realize the opportunity that I had in front of me. And. And I think, you know, it’s a gamble. Anytime you. Whether you’re getting married, whether you’re making a new friend, even or especially when you’re getting married or jumping into business together, you’re really putting a lot of faith in this other person.

James Kademan [00:39:45]:
It’s a relationship.

Cole McCloskey [00:39:46]:
Yeah, it’s a relationship. And it has to be. You have to caretake for it. And you have to be on the same page about. Especially with a business of like, where do we want this to go? There’s all. There’s all kinds of different ways to grow a business, run a business. There’s the growth mindset of we just want to grow as quickly as we can. There’s the.

Cole McCloskey [00:40:06]:
We want to just, you know, want to just stay. Stay where we’re at and keep kind of riding this train that we’re on. And if you get too far off on those, I feel like it just. I don’t know how it could work because you. And if you’re. And if you’re an entrepreneur, you’re a driven type a person typically hope so. Right.

James Kademan [00:40:26]:
You have to be.

Cole McCloskey [00:40:27]:
And so again, two people working synergistically together can be awesome. But if you’re just not on the same page, it can be really bad. I’ve not really experienced that in business, so I can’t say that for sure. But I can just imagine how bad it would be if you were in business with someone who was just completely off base of where you wanted to go.

James Kademan [00:40:48]:
I can tell you, it’s not that fun.

Cole McCloskey [00:40:49]:
Yeah.

James Kademan [00:40:50]:
I’ve had a few partnerships. Most of them are great, and I can think of one that didn’t go that hot.

Cole McCloskey [00:40:59]:
Yeah.

James Kademan [00:40:59]:
But it was just young and dumb and you don’t know.

Cole McCloskey [00:41:01]:
Yeah. And it always could happen.

James Kademan [00:41:06]:
Or it starts out cool and it.

Cole McCloskey [00:41:07]:
Takes a hard left, and I can see where. And to be clear, like, Brent and I are really good friends. One of the closest people in my life. But I don’t know that being business partners with your best friends, if you’re just best friends and you’re like, oh, hey, we both think this is a cool idea.

James Kademan [00:41:26]:
Do a little more digging chances.

Cole McCloskey [00:41:27]:
Do a little more digging before you just jump into that endeavor. Anyway, so he reached out to you.

James Kademan [00:41:34]:
And he’s like, cole, jump on board. Ditch the business you have.

Cole McCloskey [00:41:39]:
Not quite like that. But he presented what he felt was an opportunity for both of us, and I ultimately took the opportunity. And so jumping back in was a little bit of a paradigm change in a lot of different ways. Mainly that when you’re running a company of four or five people, like as I said before, you are everything. Everything’s within your immediate control for the most part.

James Kademan [00:42:09]:
Yeah, almost everything. Hopefully. Awareness. Yeah. I don’t know about control, but, yeah.

Cole McCloskey [00:42:13]:
I understand what you’re saying, but you’re really. I mean, you’re in the. The nitty gritty of it all the time. And it took a lot for me to learn how to step back just a little bit. And it’s still something I struggle with. I still sometimes keep my hands into things I shouldn’t, but learning how to really just trust others and empower others and lead others to be able to be successful and not have to be the one that makes all the decisions or puts their hands in, everything was big. And I think, oddly, in different ways, what makes our partnership so great and especially right at that time was in different ways. We both did that.

Cole McCloskey [00:42:54]:
And we both would be able to kind of tell each other, like, hey, why are you doing that? Why don’t you just let so and so do that? That’s their job. They want to do that. They don’t want you involved. They want you out of the way.

James Kademan [00:43:04]:
Delegate, delegate, delegate, delegate, delegate.

Cole McCloskey [00:43:06]:
And it’s a never ending battle, I think, for me and a lot of others that are growing businesses. But that was a big paradigm shift. And then just having to jump into the management of that many More people was challenging for me at times, but it was super rewarding and I’ve learned a lot from it and continue to learn every day.

James Kademan [00:43:33]:
Tell me a story about learning how to manage people. Because you learn the electrician side, learn how to connect wires, do all this crazy cool stuff in that realm, but all of a sudden you get thrown in one by starting your own business. You gotta manage people. And I can tell you, I thought managing people was gonna be easy, and I was very wrong.

Cole McCloskey [00:43:53]:
Yeah.

James Kademan [00:43:55]:
So what has been your experience in that world?

Cole McCloskey [00:43:58]:
Well, as I said, I’m still learning, probably always will be. But I think for me, where do I begin with that? That’s a. That’s. There’s a lot there. I think the single biggest thing for me was I. I was brought up and not in a bad way. Just it was. Everything was direct communication and there wasn’t a lot of, especially in a work environment, it was a lot of, if you hear from me, I’m going to tell.

Cole McCloskey [00:44:27]:
Like, you’re going to hear from me if you’re doing something bad. If you don’t hear from me, that means things are going great. That’s not an effective way to lead people, turns out, because.

James Kademan [00:44:35]:
Which sucks.

Cole McCloskey [00:44:36]:
Which sucks. And the trap you can fall into there is you start spending all your time on people that. Because inevitably you’re going to have people that come in that aren’t a good fit or aren’t doing things right that you have to correct. And you can’t let that go either. But you can’t get yourself, in my opinion, to be so focused on that that you don’t take time for the people that are doing a good job and not only praising them and letting them know where they stand of, hey, you’re doing a great job, I really appreciate everything you’re doing, but also helping them see, like, okay, what is the next step for you? How can we help you be more successful? That goes a long way. And if you are the person that’s going the extra mile, working, coming in early, staying late, company means a lot to you, all of those things. And you never get any attention or you don’t feel like it’s really appreciated or cared for it, ultimately a lot of times just ends up in that person being kind of like, why am I here doing this?

James Kademan [00:45:42]:
Right.

Cole McCloskey [00:45:43]:
I think it’s a trap you can fall into if you focus too. If you don’t put enough emphasis on really showing appreciation and letting everyone know where they stand.

James Kademan [00:45:53]:
Right. It’s difficult. It’s difficult because you got so much thing going on. You’re like, oh, I have to thank this person for doing their job besides just a paycheck. And it’s interesting. I have that same problem because in my head I’m like, ah. Why do I have to constantly tell you that you’re appreciated? Just know that you’re appreciated and we’re cool. There’s a thing in, I think it was Mad Men when Don Draper’s secretary is like, you never tell me that I do a good job.

James Kademan [00:46:23]:
And he’s like, I do every two weeks when you get paid.

Cole McCloskey [00:46:27]:
Yeah. And I think that’s a mentality that is for better or worse. I think everybody would agree that with the millennials, my generation and beyond, I think is just not typically not accepted as much as it was before.

James Kademan [00:46:45]:
Right. Totally agree, totally agree.

Cole McCloskey [00:46:46]:
And I. If I can just go on aside for that for a second, please.

James Kademan [00:46:49]:
Yeah.

Cole McCloskey [00:46:51]:
Again, I feel like I was raised and I don’t think it was bad in any way, but with that kind of old school mentality. And I’ve had many conversations, all kinds of people, but, oh, my gosh, these people are soft these days. And okay, you can think that if you want, but the reality is, let’s look at it pragmatically, that as a business, we want to. We need to be able to connect with our people. And if showing a little appreciation is what it takes to do that, I think we should do that. And I don’t know that it’s necessarily a bad thing that we, as a society, I guess, in business, are adopting a culture of being appreciative and valuing people for more than just what they produce. Obviously, there has to be a bar that everyone hits to be able to be on the team, but I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing that. No, I would agree people are seen in that way.

Cole McCloskey [00:47:46]:
But it is different than how I feel like I saw growing up. Not only from my dad, but just other people I worked for and things. It’s different, but it’s not necessarily all as bad as people make it out to be sometimes.

James Kademan [00:48:01]:
No, I wouldn’t consider it bad. Other than the time that, like, it’s just one more thing.

Cole McCloskey [00:48:07]:
Correct.

James Kademan [00:48:08]:
On the flip side, you’re building up your culture to be better. It should help your people be better because they’re appreciated and all that kind of stuff. Like, you should show appreciation.

Cole McCloskey [00:48:16]:
So I get that. And if you can do that and you’re. And not everyone in your industry is doing that, you’re going to be. That holds a lot of value.

James Kademan [00:48:27]:
Huge thing. Very true.

Cole McCloskey [00:48:28]:
A lot of value.

James Kademan [00:48:28]:
Yeah. It’s interesting because I guess as we’re talking, I’m thinking the jobs that I had where I was actually W2, I can’t think of many times where, when a boss, where it wasn’t awkward for a boss to be like, hey, James, you did a really good job there, or whatever. And I remember a boss telling that to me and I’m like, can I get back to work? I know I’m doing a good job.

Cole McCloskey [00:48:53]:
Yeah.

James Kademan [00:48:53]:
Like, just let me do my job. And it’s funny because the boss probably went out of their way and just like, I gotta let James know he’s doing a good job. And in me, I’m just like, ah, I got other stuff to do. Like, let me do my job where other people are like, aww, Right.

Cole McCloskey [00:49:09]:
It means different things to different people. It holds more weight.

James Kademan [00:49:13]:
Correct. So it’s interesting, I guess, because from my point of view, the people that are doing a good job, that are really kicking butt, know they’re kicking butt and they don’t need the pat on the back. But that is not universal. I’m learning that my feelings are not universal.

Cole McCloskey [00:49:29]:
Right, right.

James Kademan [00:49:29]:
My feelings, my opinions. Yeah.

Cole McCloskey [00:49:31]:
Oh, definitely. Yeah. That’s, that’s the hardest thing to come to is not everybody has the same opinion you do.

James Kademan [00:49:35]:
Yeah.

Cole McCloskey [00:49:36]:
Especially person. But, but yeah, I, I, I think that’s, I can’t remember what question that, oh, managing.

James Kademan [00:49:44]:
Yeah.

Cole McCloskey [00:49:45]:
Just manage. That was a big, big piece of, for me of managing people and then leading people to just. People respond. Similar thought process. Right. People respond differently to different types of. There’s different ways to lead people based on what you think they’ll respond to. It’s not a manipulative thing.

Cole McCloskey [00:50:07]:
I mean, I have a way that if I’m being led by someone and whatever it is, that I will respond better than the next person.

James Kademan [00:50:15]:
Sure.

Cole McCloskey [00:50:16]:
And just thinking that through before you just kind of make a blanket. I’m going to approach this type of situation the same way every time. Maybe think about, okay, where am I missing an opportunity to help this person along? Even if it’s a difficult conversation, even if it’s conversation of, hey, man, you’re not cutting it, or whatever, we need this to improve. You can do that in a way that gives them the best chance based on your perspective and be a little bit more strategic about it than just, hey, you’re not cutting it. You better get your act together or you’re out. That’s Just. I think most people respond better to having a little bit more context. And sometimes you want to be a little bit softer.

Cole McCloskey [00:51:02]:
Sometimes some people do need a little bit more of a direct and hard.

James Kademan [00:51:06]:
Yeah, I think it depends on the severity of the ignorance of the mistake. Right?

Cole McCloskey [00:51:10]:
Yeah, yeah. And the person. You know, some people just. I mean, I’m one of them. I’m thick headed. Sometimes somebody needs to say, cole, this is. This is. How do you not see this? This is what’s going on.

James Kademan [00:51:21]:
I’m the same way.

Cole McCloskey [00:51:22]:
And then it’s like, oh, boom. I woke up. Like, oh, my God. Yeah, you’re right.

James Kademan [00:51:25]:
Interesting you say that, right. Because I prefer that someone just say, dude, what are you. What are you doing?

Cole McCloskey [00:51:30]:
Same, same.

James Kademan [00:51:30]:
Right.

Cole McCloskey [00:51:31]:
Just tell me.

James Kademan [00:51:31]:
Yeah, so where it’s interesting, because then I say that to employees and they’re like, whoa, dude, why are you coming off so strong? You’re like, I thought that was more efficient. I thought, yeah, we’re cool. But no, we gotta sugarcoat this a little bit.

Cole McCloskey [00:51:45]:
Yeah. I mean, managing people is challenging and it’s. I think it’s one of the most important things that gets overlooked in business.

James Kademan [00:51:52]:
Oh, my gosh. Absolutely.

Cole McCloskey [00:51:53]:
I mean, by. And all. In all different sectors, you know, just. It’s the people that make the thing happen.

James Kademan [00:52:03]:
Yes.

Cole McCloskey [00:52:03]:
Whatever it is. So, I mean, again, I’m not perfect at this. I’m still learning it every day. But it’s something that I think when I came in, especially as an owner and even when I went out on my own, I had no. I didn’t put enough weight. I didn’t realize the amount of weight that that carries. If you’re gonna really build a team that you kind of have to learn how to lead people effectively.

James Kademan [00:52:29]:
Absolutely. It’s huge. Yeah.

Cole McCloskey [00:52:31]:
Yeah.

James Kademan [00:52:31]:
And I was the same way. I thought it was like, people, no problem. I got that dialed in.

Cole McCloskey [00:52:35]:
They’re getting a paycheck, right? They’ll just say, yes, sir, to whatever I can.

James Kademan [00:52:38]:
Yeah, yeah. You hire them, you pay them, they do the job, everybody goes home.

Cole McCloskey [00:52:42]:
Not to keep rolling down this road, but you don’t. What I’ve learned too, is you don’t want the yes, sir people, obviously. You want people to respect you, you want to earn their respect, and you want them to understand that at the end of the day, what I say is the decision. And you do have to do that. But I don’t, personally, I don’t want people that just. If they think an idea is really, really bad, I don’t want them to feel Like, I’m not even gonna bring it up because. Cole.

James Kademan [00:53:09]:
No, you want them to say something.

Cole McCloskey [00:53:11]:
You want them to say something.

James Kademan [00:53:11]:
Yes.

Cole McCloskey [00:53:12]:
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve, for whatever reason, had some crazy idea that somebody’s like, hey, what? Have you ever thought about doing it this way? Or have you realized, or did you think about the fact that, you know, two weeks from now, this is gonna happen if we do this? And it’s like, oh, my gosh, no, I wasn’t thinking that. But thank you for saying something. So I don’t think you want. You don’t necessarily want a bunch of people that are just. Yes. People, but there’s a fine line there, too.

James Kademan [00:53:41]:
Yeah. I can definitely think of things that I’ve done that were dumb, that I didn’t know they were dumb until somebody brought it up to me. And you’re like, oh, I never thought of that. And then you’re like, thank goodness you said something. Otherwise we would have spent, over the course of decades, thousands of dollars on this thing.

Cole McCloskey [00:54:01]:
Yep.

James Kademan [00:54:02]:
Yeah. So I would much prefer that someone say, hey, man, think of this.

Cole McCloskey [00:54:07]:
Right. Right.

James Kademan [00:54:08]:
And then you can have a conversation about it and maybe whatever, just figure it out instead of just being like, yep, you must know everything. I totally do not know everything. No, no.

Cole McCloskey [00:54:18]:
None of us do.

James Kademan [00:54:19]:
No. So I love it. Cole, thank you so much for being on the show.

Cole McCloskey [00:54:22]:
Absolutely.

James Kademan [00:54:23]:
Let me get my little piece of paper here and think about who we’re supposed to thank here. This has been Authentic Business Adventures, the business program that brings you the struggle stories and triumphant successes of business owners across the land. We are locally underwritten by the bank of Sun Prairie. If you’re listening or watching this on the Web, if you could do us a huge favor, give it a big old thumbs up. Subscribe and, of course, share it with your entrepreneurial friends, especially those friends that may have some electricity running through their building or need to know something about that, which I hope that’s everyone. We’d like to thank you, our wonderful listeners, as well as our guest, Cole from the Electrician, Inc. Cole, can you tell us how people can get ahold of you?

Cole McCloskey [00:55:01]:
Sure. So you can find us on Google? Just Google the Electrician Incorporated. You can find us online at www.theelectricianinc.com and fill out a service request. Or if you’re looking for employment, we have a careers section there. So that’s how you find us.

James Kademan [00:55:18]:
That’s Inc.

Cole McCloskey [00:55:20]:
Yes.

James Kademan [00:55:20]:
Just to make sure. All right. Past episodes can be found morning, noon, and night at the podcast link found https://drawincustomers.com thank you for joining us. We will see you next week. I want you to stay awesome. And if you do nothing else, enjoy your business. And Authentic Business Adventures is brought to you by Calls On Call, offering call answering and receptionist services for service businesses across the country. On the web at https://callsoncall.com and of course, the Bold Business Book, a book for the entrepreneur and all of us available wherever fine books are sold.