How to Win at the Massage Business

Visit Kaitlin at: http://www.madisonbetterbody.com/

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You have found Authentic Business Adventures,

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the business program that brings you
the struggle stories

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and triumphant successes
of business owners across the land.

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We’re locally underwritten
by the Bank of Sun Prairie.

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My name is James Kademan, entrepreneur,

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author, speaker, and helpful coach to
small business owners across the country.

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And today, we are welcoming/preparing
to learn from Kaitlin Rohowetz.

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I hope I nailed that.
Yeah, you did.

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Good job.

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The owner of a Better Body Massage
in Madison, Wisconsin.

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So, Kaitlin, how are you doing today?
I’m doing great.

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Busy day in the life of entrepreneurs.
Yeah, right.

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Hey, it’s Monday.
Yeah, exactly.

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How’s it going to go.

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The long list of things to do on Mondays.
Yeah.

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Overall, good.
Thanks for having me.

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Thanks for being on here.

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You, I’m sure, have a good story.

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I’m trying to think, I

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guess, so that people know
you’re also a client of Calls on Call.

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Yes, that works really
well for our business.

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Full disclosure, right?
Yeah.

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How long have you had
a Better Body Massage?

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Well, I’m still saying this year because

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it’s January, but last year,
2022, we celebrated 10 years.

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Did you really?
Yeah.

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Well, congrats.
Thank you.

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Yeah, it’s pretty huge accomplishment.
Nice.

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Yeah, I’m excited.

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So what made you decide to start
a massage therapy business?

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Oh, that’s always a funny question.

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I started doing massage
on a whim, to be honest.

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I always knew I wanted to do something

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healthcare, somewhat related,
but I thought that would be nursing

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or something, occupational
therapist, something like that.

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And at the time, everything had nursing

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shortages and everything
was a three year waiting list.

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So I was like, well, I don’t want to wait
three years to go back to school.

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And I ended up taking the massage therapy

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program at Madison College because
I could get in right away.

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And it had a lot of the same prereqs as
nursing.

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And then I loved it.

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I had never had a massage before
before I went to massage school.

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Really?
Yeah, ever.

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Oh, wow.
So I was just like, this sounds fun.

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And then I did really end up loving
it because it’s still helping people.

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You’re helping people with pain, tension,

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stress, but it’s like night and day
difference the type of environment you’re

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doing it in, like a hospital or a clinic
compared to a nice, relaxing spot.

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Oh, sure.
Cold and prison like versus

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Warm and welcoming.
Yeah.

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Interesting.
Yeah.

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And then just obviously

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snowballed from there and turned into
celebrating our 10 year anniversary.

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Nice.
So when did you first get your massage?

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Your first massage?

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We had a project in school
to go receive a professional massage,

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and we had to do a report
on it about how we liked it.

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Holy cow.
Yeah.

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So I was like, well,
that’s not a bad homework assignment.

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I need homework like that.

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That’s crazy.

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But then part of massage
school is practicing hands on.

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So I was giving and getting massages three
days a week for almost a year straight.

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Wow.
Yeah, I miss that.

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The giving, I mentioned, just the wrist.
Or the hands.

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Yeah, it is some wrist and hand strength,
but you build it up fairly quickly.

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I don’t know.
It doesn’t take long.

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And then in school,

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you learn how to use your body so
that you’re not using only hand strength.

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You’ll see the smallest,

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most petite person, and they could
just give a ton of pressure.

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And it’s just because we learn how to use

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our core and our legs,
and it’s not just about…

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Strong hands are important,
don’t get me wrong.

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Right.
All right.

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So when you go to school,

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at Madison College,
how long program are we talking?

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It was, I think, 10 months at the time,
it was like a certificate.

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That was part of the reason I did it
because I was like, it’ll be short

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and then I’ll go back to school
for nursing, and I never did.

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Did you start your business right.
After you got out of school?

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Not right away.

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I had no idea what I wanted to do, so I
went to Massage Envy, corporate chain.

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It was a great place to get my foot

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in the door when I had no
idea what I wanted to do.

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Then I was going to actually bring this up
because I was like, this is kind of a fun story.

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I ended up starting my business because
I was having a garage sale and

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some person comes and she goes,
see something in the back of my garage.

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It wasn’t for sale.
She goes, is that a massage table?

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I was like, yeah.
She goes, you’re a massage therapist?

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I go, yeah.
She goes, me too.

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She goes, I’m actually looking to

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rent my own place right now and looking
for someone to rent one with.

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So I met this random person
at a garage sale.

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She seemed nice and we decided to rent
a space together and start a business.

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So you got a business partnership

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just from a random person that you
met at your own garage sale?

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Basically, yeah.
And it ended up being…

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I mean, I don’t necessarily
recommend that as a strategy.

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How to start a business,
open a garage sale.

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Find some nice person at a garage sale.

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No.
So, yeah, it ended up being great.

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We rented space together,
but it was basically

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her first starting her business and me,
I didn’t really know anything about

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starting a business, but I was like,
Let’s give it a try.

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All right.

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So how long did you work at Massage Envy
before you got together with this garage sale?

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Like a year.
It wasn’t very long.

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So I
started my business about a year after

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working at Massage Envy,
and then I was only doing both for about

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three months because I figured
I wanted to have a safety net.

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I wasn’t going to be like, Oh,
I’ll just start my own business and hope

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everything goes well,
even though that’s kind of what I did.

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But I had that safety net in case.
All right.

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Things didn’t.
And at the time, rent was so affordable

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compared to now at least that I did
the math and I was like, Well,

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worst case scenario, it’s not like
I’m going to lose that much money.

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I’d have to I think I equated it to like,

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If I do 12 massages in a month,
I’ll break even or something like that,

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whatever the math. Wow. Okay,
I’m glad I’m glad.

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We were over at the clock Tower buildings.
On Indiana.

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Oh, nice.
That’s not too far from here.

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Yeah.
So funny.

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Yeah, cheap rent.
All right.

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Not super involved, but yeah.

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You shared a room or not shared,
but I mean, she did her massage.

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Is that in the.
Same space?

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Yeah.

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So she just had her own separate
business in her own room.

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Then I had mine was still my own separate

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business, and I had my own room,
and we each had our own clients networked

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and did whatever we wanted
to do to get clients.

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I had no idea what I was doing,
but I just had a lot of ambition.

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Well, I imagine working for massage Envy.

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I mean, you get to see some
systems and stuff like that.

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Good or bad.
I was just going to say that.

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I definitely figured out some things.

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I don’t want to say anything bad about

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them because for me at the time
in my life, it was like the perfect.

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It’s a really good job
for what I needed at the time.

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But then once you are on your own and you
figure out what you want to do,

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there were just a ton of things that I
knew I was going to do differently.

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Sure.
Have more one on one time with clients.

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That environment just to me as
the therapist felt rushed sometimes.

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That was thing number one, build more
relationship, get to know my clients.

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It’s not just random walk ins.

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I wanted to see people and develop
care plans for them and actually see them

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get better and see them
on a regular basis.

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So that’s what my business turned more

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into is, yes, massages are relaxing,
but they’re also very therapeutic.

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The therapy side of your shoulder hurts.

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Let’s have you come

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in two or three times in a row closer
together until you stop having that pain.

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And then we’ll spread the massages out,

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but you’ll still come in every four
to six weeks to preventative maintenance.

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That’s basically what I preach a lot
of now is preventing things rather than

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running yourself down
and trying to fix everything.

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It’s probably easier to prevent.

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I imagine.
Usually, yeah.

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This day and age, with all of us having so

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much stress and everything,
it’s inevitable you’re going to get aches

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and pains for life,
but prevent what you can.

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Yeah, there’s a lot of.
Movement.

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Now.

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Joking with my wife
the other day, because…

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Well, we had to reschedule this because
we were both sick at different times.

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But my wife’s like, How are you feeling?

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And I’m like, I think there’s not a day

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in my life that I can
remember where nothing hurt.

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There’s just always an ankle shoulder.
You got a sore throat.

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Just always something.

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I can still feel my shoulder
from when I played dodgeball.

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When did we play Dodgeball?

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Two weeks ago.
Oh, yeah.

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But it’s one of those,
we don’t play Dodgeball every day.

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But when you do, you’re like,
pick up a ball, throw it, no warm up.

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I hear that a lot.

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Clients will tell us, Oh,
it just seems like…

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I don’t know if they attribute
it to just getting older.

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Everything hurts.

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But
yes, things do get harder as our bodies

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age, but also things start
to accumulate over time.

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Okay.

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So tension that goes unresolved,
your body compensates.

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If things are tight and you get your hip

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flexors and you start to bend forward
at the waist, well, your body is not going

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to let you walk hunched
over in your 30s or 40s.

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You’re going to stand right back up,

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but then it’s going to arch your lower
back and create a different issue.

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Our bodies are incredible the way
we compensate, but I can’t tell you how

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many times people say, Oh,
I just woke up with this pain.

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And to me, that signals
you probably didn’t wake up with it.

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It’s been building because you haven’t

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necessarily been doing everything
you could to take care of yourself.

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But it’s hard taking care
of yourself is a full time job.

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Yeah, I suppose.
It’s.

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Not necessarily top of mind
because you’re going.

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Yeah, it’s not really part
of our culture either.

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You’re just like, Hey, pause for a moment
and do some pre workout warm up stuff.

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Or whatever.

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When’s the last time you had a day where

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you just are like, oh,
there’s nothing on my agenda today.

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I’m just going to relax and stretch.

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I think it was in the womb.

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Yeah.

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It wasn’t recent.
Yeah.

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I don’t think if I ask any business owner

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that there each day,
they could remember a day.

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No, I had one of my employees

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when I told them that I was sick, so I’m
not going to be on the Zoom, whatever.

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They’re just like, Oh, just take a day.
I’m like, Yeah, that’s.

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Not happening.
That’s not a thing.

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No.
No, I.

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Will just do what I always do
and just pretend it’s not a problem.

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I’m going to live my life.
It doesn’t exist.

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Yeah, no.

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Well, I just had a baby in May,

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and people are like, Well, how long are
you going to take for maternity leave?

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And I was like, Well, that’s a weird
question for me because I own a business.

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So technically, I’m not going to be there

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every day giving massages, but I never
actually took a maternity leave.

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We moved into this space
the same month I had the baby.

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Did you really?
He was three days old from the hospital,

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and I came in here to check
how the paint was going.

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That’s awesome.

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My husband’s like, Are you
sure you want to do this?

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I’m like, Yeah,
they better not mess it up.

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I think they did a great job.

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You scheduled.
The move, right?

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It wasn’t like a spontaneous light.

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Switch thing?
Yes and no.

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The clock Tower buildings, we were there

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the whole time up until May,
so almost 10 years.

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Holy cow.

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We got the word that they were thinking
about demolishing the buildings.

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They just didn’t have a timeline.
Wow.

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Basically, what was going to happen,
they snuck in there when people renewed

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their lease, that at any time they could
give you 90 days notice to vacate.

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And I was like, Well, I don’t want to be

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stuck in that situation where all
of a sudden I have a newborn baby.

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I have to find a place to move
and move my business in 90 days.

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So I was proactively looking.
Got it.

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And that’s just how it
happened to work out.

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But things have a way of falling

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into place sometimes because
we love the space.

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So you were in the same office building.

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Was it the same office?
Yeah.

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So the person who I originally rented

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with, she just moved
on to different things.

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At one point, her partner got a job in
New York and they moved.

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Now they’re back in Madison,
but she’s not really massaging anymore.

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So when she moved is when I hired my first

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other massage therapist to do massages,
like my overflow in her space.

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So garage.
Sale lady.

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Garage sale lady moved on.
Yeah.

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Moved on.
And a few years.

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Or how long were you guys?
I think two years.

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It was okay.
Yeah.

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Looking back, everything blends together.

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It’s tough.
Yeah, I get it.

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But yeah, so she wasn’t
there for too long.

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S he was all worried
about breaking her lease.

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I was like, No, I’m super busy.

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I could use another room
and I’ll just hire someone.

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Wow.
All right.

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So you take over her half lease, whatever.
Yeah.

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Now, I love talking about employees
because I don’t feel so bad then.

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How do you hire your
first massage therapist?

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Because you’re talking about you got
to hire personality, skill set, and

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I’m going to say tolerance,
for lack of a better word.

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Yeah.
Just tolerance with yourself and.

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Them, vice versa.

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I will say I have gotten much better
with it over the years about being

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a little bit more
defining what I’m looking for.

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That’s been my strategy over the last 10

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years anyways, because I have
a habit of just diving into things

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and being like, Yeah, I’ll do this
and figure it all along the way.

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T hat’s great in some situations,
but other times you want to be more

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detailed about exactly what you’re
looking for and have a plan.

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So the first massage therapist
I ever hired did not last.

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She.
Was a great massage therapist,

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but then all the other things like
personality, reliability, the timeliness,

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the cleanliness, all those other
important things that I just do naturally

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that you naively assume other people
can be great at, and then they’re not.

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So as far as massage goes,
she was great, very talented.

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Perk of my job is I have to receive
a massage in the office.

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Oh, nice.
All right.

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Let me see what you got.
Let me see what you got.

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Yeah, it’s a perk in the job.

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So that part went well.

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But then over the years, I

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made note of the things I look for,
reliability, show up to the interview.

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Even just like five minutes late,
I’m like, a strike one.

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People show up late.
To interview?

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Yeah.
Recently, we just hired,

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you met Antoinette up front, she’s our new
administrative assistant, just part time.

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We’re still going to use
calls on the call.

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There’s other things I need
to help with around here, too.

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But before her,
I interviewed two other people,

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and both of them were almost 10
minutes late for the interview.

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You’re kidding?

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I’m like, I’m hiring an assistant
to make my life easier.

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That’s.
Funny.

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Sometimes,
I don’t know, people just have different

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ways of thinking, but now I’m
a little more clear on what I want.

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Got it.

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Now, reliability, customer service
is a huge thing we look for.

[00:13:52.560]
It’s not just being good at massage.

[00:13:54.390]
It’s about how well you can talk
to people and relate with people.

[00:13:59.650]
Somewhat sales.

[00:14:00.440]
I don’t like to think
that we’re salesy at all.

[00:14:02.570]
Everybody’s in sales, though.
Exactly.

[00:14:04.510]
If there’s a transaction of money.

[00:14:07.330]
How to basically

[00:14:09.760]
facilitate those conversations
without it feeling unnatural, that thing.

[00:14:13.270]
The first one good while it lasted.

[00:14:17.050]
I’m not unhappy about the experience
because I learned something from it.

[00:14:21.480]
But it quickly grew from there because
she was my first one.

[00:14:27.280]
Then I’m trying to think again,
the timelines all start to jumble.

[00:14:29.310]
But at some point, I started teaching
at the massage school just part time.

[00:14:33.070]
I was in there.
Over here?

[00:14:34.720]
Not this one over here.

[00:14:35.840]
It was at Madison College
where I went to school.

[00:14:37.880]
Oh, really?

[00:14:38.190]
The program director
at the time reached out to me and was just

[00:14:41.670]
like, We could use an extra
instructor in our clinic.

[00:14:44.430]
So once they’ve gone through the program,
they would do a clinic that just operated

[00:14:48.970]
basically
as a massage studio where clients

[00:14:51.840]
from the public would come in and get
massages from the students.

[00:14:54.610]
And it was my job to
oversee that part of it.

[00:14:58.130]
So that was a lot of fun because I loved
being back in a learning environment.

[00:15:02.470]
But then also I could

[00:15:04.530]
handpick people I liked and be like,
You guys can work out a better body.

[00:15:08.770]
So I still have two people that were my,
I call them my OGs, my original people.

[00:15:14.120]
That’s awesome.

[00:15:14.680]
From the massage school,
they still work here.

[00:15:16.350]
That is cool.

[00:15:17.230]
So once I fine tuned what I was looking
for and what I needed and had a better

[00:15:21.330]
screening process, then I ended up having
a really good retention rate that I’m.

[00:15:26.190]
Proud of.
So you’re the pick of the litter.

[00:15:28.600]
Yeah.
Do you still do that?

[00:15:30.810]
Massage school is
unfortunately closed now.

[00:15:33.040]
Oh, it is?
Well, Madison College is.

[00:15:34.750]
They’re still East West and Aveta in

[00:15:37.210]
Madison, but they’re very
sporratic with their program.

[00:15:41.030]
So there’s just not a lot of massage
therapists entering the field.

[00:15:44.690]
Is that a universal thing or
is it a Madison area thing?

[00:15:48.610]
I think it’s both, but Madison in
particular is really struggling with it.

[00:15:52.840]
Okay.
Do you have a reason why?

[00:15:56.130]
Covid leads us back to the inevitable

[00:15:58.450]
conversation about COVID. But
during the pandemic,

[00:16:02.430]
massage was just one of those industries
that you couldn’t get around it.

[00:16:07.600]
It was weird because we were technically
allowed to be open because in Wisconsin,

[00:16:10.600]
massage therapists are considered
health care professionals.

[00:16:12.890]
So we were written in the orders
that we could be open.

[00:16:16.400]
But then some people were like,
Why are you open?

[00:16:18.150]
You shouldn’t be open.

[00:16:19.720]
So we didn’t really advertise
the fact that we were open.

[00:16:21.960]
O ther massage therapists
would be super judgey.

[00:16:24.150]
It just became a very

[00:16:28.120]
weird and stressful environment
for the massage therapist because

[00:16:33.570]
clients needed us, but we also
had our own stuff going on.

[00:16:36.580]
And so self care, it was like,

[00:16:38.200]
we’re preaching this, but we’re
not taking care of ourselves.

[00:16:40.410]
So a lot of the massage therapists
just left the profession in 2020.

[00:16:45.730]
I’ve been doing this for 12
and a half years now.

[00:16:51.200]
Basically, I have a lot of friends who
they don’t work for me, but I know them.

[00:16:54.560]
They’re massage therapists
and they’re great.

[00:16:55.830]
And a lot of them aren’t doing it anymore.

[00:16:59.650]
Then with the school closing last year
was their last class that graduated.

[00:17:04.800]
That sounds pretty recent.
Yeah.

[00:17:06.160]
Okay.
And even then, the class that graduated,

[00:17:09.510]
normally their class size
would be about 15 students.

[00:17:12.360]
I think the last one
was like six or seven.

[00:17:14.230]
And that was part of the reason to close
it because the past

[00:17:17.730]
few classes had just been so small that
they got our business to run and they can

[00:17:24.410]
use that entire space at the school
for nursing or dental hygiene

[00:17:28.450]
and fill the space with programs that are
a lot more lucrative for the school.

[00:17:32.720]
Interesting.
It’s a bummer.

[00:17:34.320]
Yeah, it’s one of the things about

[00:17:35.510]
the pandemic that was very
interesting for me to see

[00:17:38.450]
as a business that does a lot of business
with different businesses,

[00:17:42.410]
the way that different business
owners reacted to the pandemic.

[00:17:45.830]
I mean, it’s changing every day.

[00:17:48.830]
You read the news and you’re like,
what’s the problem now?

[00:17:52.040]
It was very interesting how just
the range of how people reacted.

[00:17:57.250]
And some just closed up shop,

[00:17:59.310]
board the windows, game over, and others
are like, let’s figure this out.

[00:18:03.560]
And others are like, sit and wait.

[00:18:06.600]
And it was a weird It was.

[00:18:08.080]
And I feel like every industry
was a little different, too.

[00:18:10.550]
Certain industries, it’s super
easy to just go work from home.

[00:18:14.410]
Our industry, you literally can’t do that.

[00:18:16.590]
I saw some funny videos where people were

[00:18:20.360]
attaching
blown up rubber gloves to the end

[00:18:22.560]
of a broom handle and standing 6 feet away
from the massage table, massaging people.

[00:18:26.510]
But it’s just a hilarious way to look

[00:18:28.560]
at our reality of, yeah, we can’t keep
six feet from you, giving you a massage.

[00:18:34.400]
Then for a while,
both people were supposed to mask,

[00:18:36.320]
but some people were cool with that,
and other people didn’t want to mask.

[00:18:39.430]
So we have the trouble of navigating

[00:18:41.560]
people who came in here
and would freak out and didn’t want

[00:18:44.560]
to wear a mask at all and were
offended that we were wearing masks.

[00:18:47.730]
And then we’d have people on the complete
opposite side of the spectrum

[00:18:51.450]
that would freak out if you pulled
down your mask to take a sip of water.

[00:18:55.230]
So it’s just like, you can never please
everyone, but you have to just do what’s

[00:19:01.170]
best for your industry
for the most amount of people.

[00:19:04.280]
And that included my staff.

[00:19:05.800]
I had some staff that just
weren’t comfortable working,

[00:19:09.190]
and I didn’t force them to because we were
pretty slow anyways.

[00:19:13.590]
I was like, We can handle the client load.

[00:19:16.730]
That’s your decision, basically.

[00:19:18.830]
But
yeah, it’s weird to navigate all

[00:19:22.550]
of that as a business owner because
you’re on top of the client side, but also

[00:19:28.560]
managing your staff and your people
and making sure they’re happy

[00:19:31.970]
and comfortable
and want to come back when it’s all over.

[00:19:37.560]
Whenever that’s going to be.
Yeah, it’s just a light switch.

[00:19:39.790]
It’s all done.
I kept waiting for that headline, right?

[00:19:41.920]
It’s all over.
I know.

[00:19:42.710]
Yeah, it’s all done.
Oh, it’s funny.

[00:19:45.310]
The bars are open.
Yeah, right.

[00:19:47.080]
In Wisconsin, that’s all
people needed to hear, right?

[00:19:49.350]
That’s it.
That’s it.

[00:19:50.710]
That
is when that I figured that the whole

[00:19:54.390]
pandemic thing was more of a big
deal than I was thinking it was.

[00:19:57.910]
When they said that the bars were closed.
I’m.

[00:20:00.960]
Like.
Wait, what?

[00:20:01.800]
We can’t.
Even drink?

[00:20:02.750]
You closed the bars in Wisconsin?

[00:20:04.690]
That’s not even a thing.
Is it?

[00:20:06.520]
Yeah.
So apparently.

[00:20:08.280]
It was.
Then we knew it was serious.

[00:20:10.240]
Yeah.
Then I was like, Okay,

[00:20:11.680]
let’s just take a look at this
again and see what’s going on.

[00:20:14.600]
But yeah, it was very interesting.

[00:20:16.230]
It was still just interesting
how different people reacted.

[00:20:21.280]
Yeah.
And how not only how they reacted,

[00:20:24.910]
but then how it changed those industries,
whether for good or for bad.

[00:20:28.630]
But for forever, I mean, going forward,
people just do things differently.

[00:20:34.200]
And I think some good
things came out of it.

[00:20:36.080]
And then some…

[00:20:37.190]
Yeah, there’s some.

[00:20:38.690]
I don’t know.

[00:20:40.280]
I think it made people
take a better look at their policies.

[00:20:43.040]
And when you’re forced to make changes,
sometimes those changes can be good.

[00:20:46.560]
And you’re like, Oh, we’ve been
thinking about doing this anyways.

[00:20:48.430]
But yeah, with the massage industry,

[00:20:51.410]
I think the biggest strain it put is
on hiring for us.

[00:20:55.830]
At this stage, at least
in the pandemic, I will say.

[00:20:59.640]
It’s.
Gone through phases.

[00:21:02.320]
Your customer base has the volume
of people looking for massage grown?

[00:21:08.040]
Yes.
Oh, my gosh.

[00:21:09.110]
That’s after

[00:21:11.200]
we were, I would say, around September
of 2020, things had been open for a few

[00:21:17.800]
months already, but that’s when we noticed
people starting to trickle back in.

[00:21:21.030]
And then by January of 2021,
you could not get an appointment.

[00:21:27.210]
Not just us, anywhere.
Holy cow.

[00:21:29.630]
And it was just like a switch flipped.

[00:21:32.230]
And I hired
Grace, one of our massage therapists,

[00:21:35.350]
she went to massage school
during the pandemic.

[00:21:37.880]
So they had, how do you learn how to give

[00:21:39.950]
a massage when you can’t
practice in person?

[00:21:42.530]
I don’t know.

[00:21:43.730]
So you.
Basically don’t know?

[00:21:45.230]
They basically had.

[00:21:46.800]
To find people in their bubble.

[00:21:48.160]
For her, I think a lot of times it was her

[00:21:49.880]
kids or her siblings would come
over and she’d give them a massage.

[00:21:52.520]
And then they had to log their hours.

[00:21:53.910]
But I was like, you

[00:21:55.120]
get gyped because you’re not
getting the hands on instruction.

[00:21:57.890]
But Grace is an anomaly
because she’s amazing.

[00:22:00.170]
She’s one of the best massages I’ve
had from someone who was brand new.

[00:22:05.530]
So I was like, Please come work here.
She’s still here.

[00:22:08.960]
She’s great.

[00:22:10.720]
But yeah, it was so weird how that

[00:22:16.480]
whole thing happened
with the schools being closed.

[00:22:18.710]
And then I told her, I was like, You’re
going to be really busy really quickly.

[00:22:22.990]
Because normally when I would hire
someone, I’d say it takes about

[00:22:26.320]
two to three years to really
build up your steady clientele.

[00:22:29.080]
I’m going to market for you and get
clients in the door,

[00:22:31.110]
but then it’s your job to get them to
like you and tell them to come back.

[00:22:35.310]
And yeah, exactly, retention.

[00:22:37.680]
So normally, two to three years was

[00:22:39.190]
the time frame I gave people to have
a steady, full, consistent schedule.

[00:22:44.010]
It took Grace three months.
Wow.

[00:22:47.120]
Okay.
And it’s been like that since then.

[00:22:50.410]
Antoinette Up Front was just trying to get

[00:22:53.110]
two people scheduled, and we’re scheduling
until like mid March right now.

[00:22:57.720]
Mid.
March?

[00:22:58.510]
Holy cow.

[00:23:00.650]
So we’re booking two months out
on average right now.

[00:23:04.400]
Holy cow.
So it’s great.

[00:23:05.720]
Like I said, good things
have come from it.

[00:23:07.310]
Yeah, right.

[00:23:08.890]
So it’s interesting how

[00:23:11.600]
the, I guess, demand has gone
up and supply of therapists.

[00:23:15.320]
Has gone down.
Right.

[00:23:16.440]
And that’s the stress part of it.

[00:23:18.080]
It’s a good problem to have because all
the people who are here are super busy.

[00:23:21.170]
But then we have clients frustrated
like, I can’t get in.

[00:23:25.210]
I’m sorry.
I don’t know what to do.

[00:23:29.080]
So with this space,
can you add more employees?

[00:23:31.230]
We can, yeah.

[00:23:32.270]
We have plenty of room to
hire more people.

[00:23:35.840]
So if anyone’s listening to the podcast

[00:23:36.880]
and want to become a massage therapist,
you make good money.

[00:23:39.550]
All right.
You just got to.

[00:23:41.760]
Find them.
Yeah, exactly.

[00:23:43.650]
So before, I.

[00:23:45.050]
Guess, before pandemic,
was this a problem with therapists?

[00:23:51.040]
Not really.

[00:23:52.760]
So this is how I used to put it.

[00:23:54.110]
I used to say help is easy to find,
but good help can be hard to find.

[00:23:58.600]
Yeah, right.

[00:23:59.410]
So I could find massage
therapists pretty easy.

[00:24:02.110]
But to have one who I’m like,
you’re going to be here long term.

[00:24:05.630]
You’re a really good fit for our culture,
everything personality wise.

[00:24:11.050]
Now you just help is hard to find,
let alone good help.

[00:24:14.310]
I don’t even think
good help exists anymore.

[00:24:16.630]
It’s the feeling I get.
It’s rare.

[00:24:19.730]
It’s rare.
Very rare.

[00:24:22.000]
I think we’re in a similar situation

[00:24:23.560]
because we’re essentially selling services
that other people are performing.

[00:24:27.310]
And so you have a level

[00:24:29.560]
that you’re selling and a level
that you want people to perform at.

[00:24:32.810]
And you don’t necessarily know where they

[00:24:34.890]
perform until you hire
them and keep going.

[00:24:37.650]
And then you learn like, hey,
you’re a unicorn or hey, you’re.

[00:24:41.250]
A donkey.

[00:24:42.450]
Yeah, a donkey with a birthday cone on it.
Or something.

[00:24:45.710]
So it’s interesting.

[00:24:47.450]
I guess I just realized that now.

[00:24:49.190]
But it’s tough.
It is.

[00:24:50.950]
It’s very tough.
It is.

[00:24:52.310]
And you do your best
in the screening process.

[00:24:55.080]
And it’s so hard because you also want
to be selective to maintain

[00:25:00.600]
the value of your brand, but
you’re also desperate for help.

[00:25:05.600]
So it’s like you’re literally…
You need to lower the bar.

[00:25:08.040]
Right.
But I learned, fortunately before,

[00:25:11.260]
that if you lower the bar,
although it solves your more immediate

[00:25:14.490]
problems, it just adds more problems
down the line.

[00:25:17.430]
So I won’t anymore.

[00:25:19.190]
I’d rather be
the place where it takes two months to get

[00:25:23.030]
in than the place to get a bad
massage or have a bad experience.

[00:25:26.810]
Totally fair.

[00:25:28.930]
Unfortunately, I’m just still
dealing with that struggle.

[00:25:31.800]
I get it.
Yeah.

[00:25:33.040]
We tried to lower the bar a little bit,
and that was a train wreck.

[00:25:35.840]
It doesn’t.
Go well.

[00:25:36.880]
No.
It just doesn’t, unfortunately.

[00:25:38.840]
You’d think

[00:25:40.360]
how I was when I hired my first person,
that people, they can learn.

[00:25:43.960]
They might not be the most personable

[00:25:45.360]
in the beginning,
but they’ll pick it up easy.

[00:25:46.910]
I was like, No, they don’t.

[00:25:48.670]
No, can’t train personality.
No, exactly.

[00:25:50.920]
That’s what I’ve learned, too.

[00:25:52.310]
I can teach massage.

[00:25:55.070]
If you’re mediocre at massage, I will work
with you hands on and make you fantastic.

[00:26:01.080]
But I can’t teach you to have a good
personality.

[00:26:04.320]
No, that’s fine.
That part, I’m sorry.

[00:26:05.550]
You’re on your own.
Nice.

[00:26:07.770]
Let’s talk about your space here.

[00:26:09.570]
We’re in a couple’s.
Room here.

[00:26:11.280]
This is a couple’s massage
room here, so we do.

[00:26:13.240]
Some of those.
Then you have.

[00:26:14.530]
Other so across the hall,
we have a skin care room.

[00:26:17.190]
I have one provider who does facials,
so she does clinical heals.

[00:26:20.510]
We do fun stuff like
peppermint scalp treatments.

[00:26:23.760]
In the fall, we’ll do
a pumpkin spice facial.

[00:26:25.290]
You got to have that.

[00:26:26.520]
A pumpkin spice everything.

[00:26:27.590]
Yeah, exactly.

[00:26:29.160]
It’s obligatory.

[00:26:30.570]
Then in the back,
we have six massage rooms.

[00:26:33.120]
Oh, wow.

[00:26:34.110]
There’s eight of us right now,
but massage therapists don’t do 40 hands

[00:26:37.990]
on massages a week,
so most people are part time.

[00:26:40.520]
Got you.
That’s why I was like, we’d be

[00:26:42.770]
probably in the space where now have the
space capacity to about double in size.

[00:26:48.030]
Oh, wow.
Well, that’s still a healthy room.

[00:26:49.800]
Yeah.
All right.

[00:26:50.750]
So it’s nice.

[00:26:52.930]
Basically, everybody has their own…

[00:26:55.120]
Technically, it’s not their own rooms,
but because we have that ability right

[00:26:58.310]
now, there’s only a handful of us,
we pick our favorite rooms and you can

[00:27:02.650]
decorate the way you like and leave
your things the way you like them.

[00:27:07.050]
Have your own space.

[00:27:08.290]
I’ve always been curious about
this with massage places.

[00:27:11.570]
Sound, I imagine, is a problem.
Inevitably, yeah.

[00:27:14.600]
Because massage is quiet,

[00:27:16.910]
generally speaking,
but when you’re in a shared space

[00:27:19.840]
or there’s people, traffic, whatever, it
always seems to be a fire truck anywhere.

[00:27:25.000]
Oh, I know.
Yeah.

[00:27:26.310]
There’s not really
a great way around that.

[00:27:28.630]
You just hope your clients are so
relaxed that I call it massage drunk.

[00:27:33.120]
When they’re just
half in an awake state and half out where

[00:27:37.530]
you aren’t as aware of external
noises, that’s my hope.

[00:27:41.730]
But yeah, we do everything we
can to minimize the sounds.

[00:27:45.160]
But yeah, if an ambulance goes by on the
street outside, we can’t control that.

[00:27:48.630]
But we have music playing in the rooms,
this room, not because we’re talking.

[00:27:54.120]
And then we also have white noise
machines, like, don’t.

[00:27:57.490]
So that helps drown out a little bit.

[00:27:59.600]
And then we also dim the lights once you

[00:28:01.790]
get further back into the space, so it’s
like a visual signal to lower your voice.

[00:28:08.400]
More of that.
And it works.

[00:28:10.950]
It does work.
Nice.

[00:28:12.800]
What have been some of your biggest

[00:28:14.010]
challenges with the massage
business in general?

[00:28:16.730]
Besides employees, I suppose.
That’s a big one.

[00:28:19.950]
That we haven’t covered yet.

[00:28:22.290]
Covid, hiring.

[00:28:25.360]
I think just figuring out,
like, retention.

[00:28:28.040]
Everything else is like…
Employees or clients?

[00:28:30.200]
Employees.

[00:28:32.120]
We have a service,
luckily, that people want.

[00:28:37.770]
It’s not like we’re selling…

[00:28:39.340]
We’re not doing your dialysis.

[00:28:40.870]
We’re not forcing you to come get an MRI.

[00:28:43.910]
It works. we’re giving people
a service that primarily they enjoy.

[00:28:48.120]
Right.
I hope so.

[00:28:49.120]
Right, exactly.

[00:28:50.200]
We don’t have to twist
your arm to come back in.

[00:28:52.470]
It’s more so
getting people to understand the value

[00:28:57.930]
of long term massage and how
important it is for your wellness.

[00:29:01.280]
And so

[00:29:02.720]
a part of that is people get attached
to the massage therapist that they see.

[00:29:06.190]
So when I went on maternity leave,
I was trying to ask a lot of my clients,

[00:29:11.030]
What do you really like about my massage
specifically that I do so that I can

[00:29:16.770]
have you see whoever I think
would be a good fit then?

[00:29:20.160]
Because I could guess.

[00:29:21.270]
I could say, we normally work on hips

[00:29:24.210]
and legs, so I’m going to book you
with Khai, or you really like cupping,

[00:29:28.080]
so I’m going to book you
with Persefany, whatever.

[00:29:29.810]
I could guess, but I
wanted their feedback.

[00:29:32.280]
So I asked them and I was like, Well,
what do you really like about my massage?

[00:29:34.840]
Because then I want to match you

[00:29:35.830]
with someone who’ll be a good fit while
I’m on maternity leave.

[00:29:40.120]
And I think a couple of people could

[00:29:42.080]
articulate it, but most people
were like, I don’t really know.

[00:29:44.830]
I think I just like you.
And I was.

[00:29:46.930]
Like, Well, thank you.
Yeah, right?

[00:29:49.270]
You have magic hands.

[00:29:51.560]
Similar situation, I guess, right?

[00:29:53.390]
Because our clients get
attached to our employees.

[00:29:56.570]
Employee goes away for whatever reason.

[00:29:59.290]
Then clients are like, What the hell?

[00:30:01.960]
And we’re like, Sorry, people don’t.
Last forever.

[00:30:04.450]
Yeah, it just happens.

[00:30:08.080]
It’s not anything people
generally plan for.

[00:30:10.310]
It’s like people

[00:30:12.280]
move or people decide they want to do
something else with their life.

[00:30:16.210]
Yeah, life.

[00:30:18.040]
Happens from people go.

[00:30:20.000]
It’s funny that you mentioned the hair

[00:30:21.470]
thing because I had the same hair person
for, oh, man, I bet it’s 12 years.

[00:30:27.720]
And.

[00:30:28.250]
Then COVID came around
and they’re like, We’re closed.

[00:30:32.250]
I mean, not permanently, but just
like, hey, we’re closed.

[00:30:36.310]
So then like, okay, well, I’m not
going to grow my hair out forever.

[00:30:41.080]
So I find someone else and then
then someone else became my go to.

[00:30:44.880]
And that’s how it goes sometimes.

[00:30:46.030]
It’s not the intention to leave.

[00:30:50.320]
You weren’t unsatisfied with
the services you were receiving.

[00:30:54.350]
It’s just how it worked out.

[00:30:56.010]
So we’ve definitely had that happen, too.

[00:30:58.570]
Whenever someone leaves,
we have someone who went back to school

[00:31:01.880]
and she’s just going
to do school full time.

[00:31:03.600]
So we called all her clients and we said,
it’s really important to us that you get

[00:31:06.630]
matched with someone who you’re
equally as happy with.

[00:31:10.170]
Tell us a little…

[00:31:11.400]
We reviewed your file and if you want
to tell us anything else about what you

[00:31:13.950]
really liked about that provider will
happily recommend someone.

[00:31:18.890]
Some people rebook.

[00:31:19.950]
Others are like, I’ll just
wait and I’ll go book online.

[00:31:23.920]
It’s unfortunate
because you know those people are like,

[00:31:26.080]
I’m going to see if I can
get in somewhere else.

[00:31:27.350]
But to be honest,

[00:31:29.160]
what did happen with a lot of those people
is all of a sudden you see them trickle

[00:31:32.450]
back in because they
can’t get a name anymore.

[00:31:34.720]
Okay.
All right.

[00:31:36.960]
Yeah, it’s the name of the game.

[00:31:39.200]
But retention is always a struggle.

[00:31:40.630]
But I’m aware of that, too.
So it’s really important to me.

[00:31:44.720]
I think when you enjoy your job,
you’re going to provide a better service.

[00:31:47.840]
I would hope so.
Yeah.

[00:31:48.800]
Right.

[00:31:49.310]
So if you’re happy
here, that pours into your clients.

[00:31:54.080]
Your energy is better.

[00:31:55.160]
You’re in a better mood around them.

[00:31:56.360]
So naturally, you’re just going
to do a better job is my philosophy.

[00:31:59.270]
So I do work really hard to

[00:32:01.880]
make an environment and provide
a space that they’re happy with.

[00:32:04.630]
I feel like I’m a pretty cool boss.

[00:32:08.530]
I do too.

[00:32:09.600]
But sometimes my employees
tell me otherwise.

[00:32:11.040]
I know.
Not recently, but yeah.

[00:32:13.840]
Yeah.
I mean, it can’t be perfect for everyone.

[00:32:16.280]
No.

[00:32:16.710]
I spend a lot of one
on one time with them.

[00:32:20.040]
We do a lot of learning trades.

[00:32:21.510]
So it’s usually a group of three where
one massage therapist will get

[00:32:25.750]
on the table
and the other massage therapist will start

[00:32:28.510]
giving them massages and we’ll work on new
techniques and I’ll get my feedback.

[00:32:32.560]
I’m great at certain things.

[00:32:33.520]
I’m not an expert in every single massage
technique ever invented,

[00:32:36.630]
but it’s also not my agenda to completely
change the massage that they’re doing.

[00:32:42.430]
It’s more so to pick up what they’re
already doing and enhance it.

[00:32:46.680]
You could probably get more pressure
if you come at it from this direction.

[00:32:50.000]
Or how about if
you change the direction of your pressure

[00:32:52.290]
this way, and that’ll help avoid
the chop flow or whatever,

[00:32:57.990]
just give it live feedback,
which you really don’t get anywhere else.

[00:33:01.960]
No.
I think that’s one of the things that, A,

[00:33:04.470]
makes us unique, but then B helps them
be happy here.

[00:33:08.440]
Because the longevity
of massage therapists,

[00:33:10.320]
even if they want to do it forever,
the average burnout rate is 3 to 5 years.

[00:33:14.270]
Is it really?
That was a statistic before the pandemic.

[00:33:17.770]
3 to 5 years.

[00:33:18.710]
You go to school for almost a year and
now you get 3 to 5 years and.

[00:33:23.080]
Then you’re…
Because people burn themselves out.

[00:33:25.120]
I mentioned before.
Like physically?

[00:33:26.400]
Yes.
It’s pretty physical.

[00:33:27.990]
Most massage therapists,
doing five massages in a day is a lot.

[00:33:35.120]
I imagine.

[00:33:36.730]
Most people do that 3 to four days a week.
So you’re doing like…

[00:33:39.990]
We’ll just say 20 massages a week is
like full time for a massage therapist.

[00:33:44.450]
Then even after that, you’re tired.

[00:33:46.350]
So most people have to try and either, A,
figure out how to do more massage,

[00:33:51.120]
and then they burn themselves out, or B,
try and figure out a career that’s

[00:33:55.450]
flexible enough to do both part time,
and then they get frustrated.

[00:33:59.400]
I think it’s a little bit of both physical
burnout because they’re like, Well,

[00:34:02.550]
in order to do
enough hours that I need to do,

[00:34:06.530]
I got to work 36
hours of hands on massage each week.

[00:34:09.950]
And then all of a sudden you got carpal
tunnel or tendonitis or frozen shoulder.

[00:34:13.990]
Yeah, it’s just they literally
physically burn themselves out.

[00:34:17.150]
A nytime I see my team in the break room

[00:34:20.880]
and they’re like, you know, massaging
themselves, I’m like, Are you okay?

[00:34:23.560]
What do you need?
Did you get a massage?

[00:34:24.800]
Have you been to the chiropractor?

[00:34:25.920]
Like, have you taken care of yourself?

[00:34:27.040]
Did you try some cupping?

[00:34:28.290]
I’m just on top of them because their
health is the health of my business.

[00:34:33.160]
If they get hurt and they’re not taking

[00:34:35.120]
care of themselves, all of a sudden
we have two months worth of clients

[00:34:38.290]
to reschedule that are already mad because
it took them two months to get in.

[00:34:42.330]
Yeah, right.
Nice.

[00:34:43.840]
Yeah.
Got it.

[00:34:45.490]
When you said something earlier about when

[00:34:48.520]
a new employee comes
on and they give you a massage.

[00:34:50.930]
I’m just thinking, how weird would
it be to give the boss a massage?

[00:34:55.090]
Oh, it’s so funny because I
know they’re always nervous.

[00:34:58.760]
Always.
I think hands are shaking.

[00:35:01.530]
I have had one.

[00:35:04.890]
I’ve done very few
interviews that I haven’t hired because I

[00:35:09.590]
do a preliminary screening
interview, like a Zoom call.

[00:35:13.640]
It’s basically interviewing
your personality.

[00:35:14.910]
If your personality is good and you pass

[00:35:17.200]
interview number one,
then you come in for the hands on.

[00:35:19.720]
I think it would be nice for me to just do

[00:35:21.150]
the hands on interview because
then I’d get more massages.

[00:35:24.600]
Then I got to shut more people down, too.

[00:35:26.280]
So if you make it past the first
interview, then you come do the hands on.

[00:35:29.430]
I think there’s only been one person

[00:35:31.530]
that gave me a massage
that got to the hands on portion.

[00:35:35.070]
I didn’t end up hiring them
because it was very shaky.

[00:35:37.850]
It was that bad?
Yeah, it was bad.

[00:35:39.920]
I just had lots.

[00:35:41.920]
Of sweat.
All right.

[00:35:44.280]
It’s not good.

[00:35:45.480]
I was really disappointed.

[00:35:46.600]
I felt bad because personality wise,

[00:35:47.970]
I was like, Oh, I thought this
was going to be so great.

[00:35:50.910]
And then it wasn’t.
Oh, no.

[00:35:53.290]
But most of the time people do great.

[00:35:57.920]
You know they’re nervous.

[00:35:58.990]
I try and think back,
but it’s been a while for me.

[00:36:01.650]
I only ever had one job, one massage
job, massage and everything.

[00:36:06.080]
Oh, wow.
Sure.

[00:36:06.480]
Okay.

[00:36:06.670]
I only had to do that
interview process once.

[00:36:09.000]
Some people have had to do it multiple

[00:36:10.600]
times until they land in a space
that they’re happy in.

[00:36:13.130]
I try and think back to how nervous I was,
but to be honest, I don’t remember.

[00:36:19.720]
I’m sure I probably was,
but yeah, they’re always…

[00:36:24.160]
They fight through it,
and I can tell by their touch.

[00:36:27.070]
In the beginning, maybe first 15 minutes
of the massage, you can just tell by

[00:36:31.400]
their energy in their hands
that they’re a little nervous.

[00:36:34.110]
And then as things get moving and they get

[00:36:36.910]
into their rhythm, they’re like,
Oh, yeah, I know how to do this.

[00:36:40.280]
Listen to it.
Okay.

[00:36:41.480]
Yeah.
And so it usually ends well.

[00:36:43.440]
Sure.
I try and just let them do their thing.

[00:36:46.490]
I don’t usually give a ton of feedback

[00:36:49.130]
to them in real time when I’m getting
an interview massage because

[00:36:53.800]
I’m like, I just want to see their natural
how they would do it.

[00:36:57.370]
Because I think most clients don’t
naturally give a ton of feedback.

[00:37:00.880]
They don’t know what feedback
to give other than.

[00:37:02.390]
No, I never know what.
To say.

[00:37:04.410]
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.

[00:37:05.350]
Stop killing me.
Yeah, exactly.

[00:37:06.670]
It’s too much or it’s not enough.

[00:37:08.480]
And even sometimes then people
choose not to say anything.

[00:37:10.830]
Yeah, I just tolerate it.
Yeah.

[00:37:12.810]
We got a couple’s massage.

[00:37:16.720]
Oh, my gosh.

[00:37:18.370]
I think it was last year, whatever.

[00:37:20.610]
And I swear that the woman that was

[00:37:22.890]
massaging me was trying to push
my spine through my stomach.

[00:37:26.400]
Did you tell her you wanted.
Deep tissue?

[00:37:27.720]
No.
No?

[00:37:28.200]
She just tried to push me.

[00:37:29.240]
No, it’s a relaxing just chill.
This is just chill.

[00:37:31.230]
Oh, Jesus.

[00:37:32.610]
My wife was laughing so hard because

[00:37:36.280]
she, of course, had the best
massage in the world.

[00:37:38.390]
This angel massage her.

[00:37:40.930]
She was like, James,
I’m leaving you for this dude.

[00:37:44.000]
Whatever.

[00:37:45.440]
I’m like, I can’t get
my spine out of the bed.

[00:37:48.590]
So it was so funny.

[00:37:50.390]
And I was like, she’s like
harder or softer, right?

[00:37:53.710]
And I’m like, way softer.
It is.

[00:37:57.440]
But it’s hard to know as the client,
like, you’re not a massage therapist.

[00:38:01.050]
So it is hard to know what type
of feedback to give sometimes.

[00:38:04.970]
And then there is a little bit of that,

[00:38:07.280]
like, it doesn’t really feel good,
but I don’t want to hurt your feelings.

[00:38:09.840]
Yeah, it was telling me.
I was just like.

[00:38:11.510]
It’s fine.

[00:38:12.200]
That doesn’t seem like your personality,
but I always tell my staff that.

[00:38:15.480]
I’m like, Even people who you would think

[00:38:17.200]
would speak up, they don’t
because it’s just different.

[00:38:19.750]
You’re laying unclothed on a table.
Yeah.

[00:38:23.190]
There is a slight,

[00:38:24.400]
even if it’s not conscious,
there’s a slight power differential.

[00:38:27.290]
But as a massage therapist,

[00:38:28.810]
you have to be aware of
and check in with people and

[00:38:32.720]
set the expectation up front of like,
What pressure do you like?

[00:38:35.850]
So I’ve had some, not here,

[00:38:37.910]
but I’ve had some bad massages in my life,
and it always teaches me of like, Okay,

[00:38:42.150]
that’s one thing I can point out
that we definitely do differently.

[00:38:46.120]
Yeah.

[00:38:46.450]
Whenever I get a massage,
I’m just super relaxing.

[00:38:49.330]
Don’t try to fix a thing
because regardless of how many times I

[00:38:52.830]
tell them that,
they’re all just like, off.

[00:38:55.200]
The ropes.
Yeah.

[00:38:56.240]
They probably feel your
softball or dodgeball injuries on their

[00:38:59.130]
shoulders and they’re like, That
is the curse of the massage therapy.

[00:39:02.600]
They want to fix it.
They’re like, Oh, I found this.

[00:39:04.680]
I got to fix it.

[00:39:05.200]
But some people don’t want
that and you got to respect that.

[00:39:07.840]
No, because they find that not.

[00:39:09.190]
Let me get the drill out.
You’re just here to relax.

[00:39:11.990]
There’s therapeutic benefits, too,

[00:39:13.930]
to just relaxing, especially for someone
who has a super busy lifestyle.

[00:39:19.280]
You don’t take the time to relax.

[00:39:20.440]
So all of a sudden when you finally

[00:39:21.720]
have an hour to yourself to just chill,
maybe that’s all you want to do.

[00:39:26.590]
Your brain can finally rest for an hour.

[00:39:29.150]
That’s very true.

[00:39:30.410]
Part of it, though, I guess I always think

[00:39:33.610]
if it’s pain, I won’t fall asleep because
sometimes I’ve had some expensive naps.

[00:39:38.600]
I.

[00:39:39.810]
Didn’t mean to.

[00:39:41.680]
But you’re just like…

[00:39:43.520]
It’s still working on your body.

[00:39:44.800]
You’re just not conscious of it,
so you feel like you missed it.

[00:39:47.400]
I’ve heard that before.
I totally feel like I.

[00:39:49.240]
Miss.
It.

[00:39:50.150]
I feel like I was probably snoring,
just annoying the person.

[00:39:53.840]
I always tell people if you fall asleep,
it’s almost like a huge compliment to us,

[00:39:57.230]
though, because it gets your
body out of the stress response.

[00:40:01.280]
For you to feel relaxed and calm enough

[00:40:03.110]
to fall asleep during a massage,
you’re in total relaxation mode.

[00:40:06.920]
That’s what your body needed.

[00:40:08.190]
Even if you’re not conscious of it.

[00:40:10.200]
I do have some clients who are like,
No, if I fall asleep, you wake me up.

[00:40:13.270]
I’m like, don’t you know what I mean?

[00:40:15.430]
Just give me a little shove.
I don’t know.

[00:40:17.610]
But yeah, I have some people who are like,
I don’t want to miss it.

[00:40:20.920]
And then I have others who are like,
I’m sorry, I fell asleep.

[00:40:22.910]
I’m like, No, that’s
what your body needed.

[00:40:25.280]
Everybody’s just different, though.

[00:40:26.830]
But at the end of the day,
that’s why you do…

[00:40:29.640]
Every single client that comes in our
doors, we’ll do an intake with them.

[00:40:31.960]
So we’ll sit down and say,
Is there anything bothering you today?

[00:40:34.150]
What massage do you want?

[00:40:35.440]
What body parts do you want worked on?

[00:40:36.720]
What do you not want worked on?

[00:40:37.720]
Because some people are like,
Oh, don’t touch my hair.

[00:40:40.030]
Don’t touch my feet.

[00:40:41.280]
Fronts of my knees are ticklish, whatever.

[00:40:43.280]
So we’ll literally walk through like,

[00:40:44.560]
Okay, I’m going to work on your back,
your hips, the backs of your legs.

[00:40:48.000]
And then we’ll flip you over, we’ll
work on the chest, sides of the neck.

[00:40:50.630]
We’ll do some face and scalp,

[00:40:52.080]
arms and hands, and then the fronts
of the legs and the feet.

[00:40:54.360]
And we’ll use medium pressure,

[00:40:55.840]
but go a little harder
in the shoulders, like you said.

[00:40:57.790]
We’ll do just like and say it back to them
to make sure that

[00:41:01.530]
they know we’re understanding them
because that’s the worst.

[00:41:04.560]
I hear those types
of stories all the time.

[00:41:06.310]
It’s like, I go get a massage
and it wasn’t what I wanted.

[00:41:10.360]
So we really try and give people
what they’re actually wanting too.

[00:41:13.560]
Nice.

[00:41:14.120]
We have our professional opinions and our
agendas of like, if we do find stuff,

[00:41:18.040]
it is hard to be like, okay,
I’m not going to work that out.

[00:41:20.800]
I’m not going to get that nod out.

[00:41:21.870]
But at the end of the day, I call it

[00:41:25.090]
80 % what the client wants and 20 %
what you know about your profession.

[00:41:29.550]
Just throw that in there.
Sure.

[00:41:31.200]
That’s fair.
That’s totally fair.

[00:41:33.200]
What are some things that you would like
clients to know?

[00:41:37.930]
Maybe just universally for massage
and specifically for you guys.

[00:41:41.520]
Yeah.

[00:41:41.870]
I feel like a lot of clients
don’t realize how trained…

[00:41:46.530]
Not all massage therapists,

[00:41:48.410]
but some massage therapists,
everyone who works here.

[00:41:53.320]
We memorize every single muscle and bone
in the body, their attachment points.

[00:41:56.480]
Do you really?
Yeah, in school.

[00:41:58.160]
So we learn like Kinesiology, what muscles
cause abduction versus abduction.

[00:42:03.160]
When clients say, It hurts when I go like

[00:42:04.970]
this, and we know in our heads, well,
what muscles are causing that movement?

[00:42:11.880]
Technically, our scope of practice,
we can’t treat or diagnose you,

[00:42:14.320]
but we can think like, Okay,
if that motion hurts,

[00:42:16.520]
that’s where I’m going to look because
those muscles are probably tight.

[00:42:19.160]
Then we also know what muscles
are antagonistic to each other.

[00:42:22.470]
Whatever
is tight on the front is oftentimes tight

[00:42:27.150]
on the back, too, because
your body is like this giant tug of war.

[00:42:30.560]
S

[00:42:32.800]
o some people maybe know this,
but I feel like I’ll occasionally get

[00:42:35.840]
the question, Oh, you have to be licensed
to be a massage therapist?

[00:42:38.840]
I’m like, What.
Do you mean?

[00:42:40.160]
How many garages have they been at?

[00:42:41.590]
Yeah, exactly.

[00:42:44.320]
I mean, a lot of other countries,
you don’t have to.

[00:42:47.400]
Really?
Mmhmm.

[00:42:48.890]
I don’t know if that’s good or bad.
Right.

[00:42:51.120]
I think that I’ve had many, many…
We travel a lot.

[00:42:53.330]
I’ve had many massages elsewhere,

[00:42:55.030]
and you can tell the countries that they
know what they’re doing versus the ones

[00:43:00.090]
that are just unaware of
how long your muscles are.

[00:43:04.470]
They’ll stop halfway through and I’m like,
That’s weird, but okay.

[00:43:08.880]
I’m not here for therapy.

[00:43:10.150]
I’m just relaxing.
Sure.

[00:43:12.040]
Interesting.

[00:43:12.650]
I think that’s the biggest thing is
massage is, yes, it’s relaxing.

[00:43:18.430]
Yes, it’s like spa, but it’s
actually like we’re very trained.

[00:43:22.530]
I
say to people, we definitely want to avoid

[00:43:27.090]
that medical sterile clinical
environment. But yet,

[00:43:31.150]
be able to still help you in some
of those ways physically.

[00:43:36.160]
So we’re doing that but in a more
relaxing environment.

[00:43:39.070]
So the best of both worlds.
Nice.

[00:43:41.120]
And then if people do need things that are

[00:43:42.890]
outside of our scope of practice,
obviously, we’ll send them to

[00:43:46.160]
refer out to a physical therapist
or chiropractor or something.

[00:43:48.850]
But yeah, I would say
that’s the biggest thing.

[00:43:51.190]
I wish clients knew

[00:43:53.000]
the level at which many of us are trained,
and then we have to continue that.

[00:43:56.670]
To renew our license,
we have to do a certain amount

[00:43:59.320]
of continuing education every
couple of years.

[00:44:00.680]
Every couple of years?
Every couple of years.

[00:44:02.120]
And we all,
because of the hands on learning traits

[00:44:04.650]
that we do together,
we all go way above and beyond that.

[00:44:07.760]
Oh, nice.
The minimum limit is 12 hours per year,

[00:44:11.150]
which is not nothing, but it’s pretty easy
to do online courses that you can just…

[00:44:16.680]
Right now.

[00:44:17.850]
Yeah, exactly.

[00:44:19.850]
I think we really dedicate ourselves

[00:44:22.050]
to learning and knowing about
the body and always improving.

[00:44:25.320]
Yeah.
Interesting.

[00:44:27.030]
I wish they would just know that we’re

[00:44:29.120]
booking two months out,
so be patient with us.

[00:44:31.290]
Yeah, right?
That’s the only other thing.

[00:44:33.280]
Most people are pretty chill about it,
but some people definitely.

[00:44:35.810]
Get upset.
That’s so funny.

[00:44:37.430]
It reminds me, we answer
phones for different…

[00:44:40.560]
Yeah.

[00:44:40.880]
Well, yeah, it’s your people
that have to deal with it.

[00:44:42.490]
We’ll have people
for accountants call April 15th at noon

[00:44:47.610]
and they’ll be like,
Can I drop my taxes off today?

[00:44:50.210]
Like.
No.

[00:44:51.610]
When we say no, we’ve had
some people just get livid.

[00:44:54.590]
And I’m.
Like, Really?

[00:44:56.930]
You waited and now you’re
making it our problem.

[00:45:00.560]
Sorry.
Yeah, it’s just a weird…

[00:45:02.410]
This is just the world we live in.

[00:45:05.370]
People want instant results with
everything and it’s not always possible.

[00:45:10.290]
Yeah, it’s just a different world.

[00:45:12.430]
Microwave society.
Yeah.

[00:45:15.130]
Do you have any crazy stories
as far as clients go?

[00:45:17.930]
Something where you’re just like,
That was a nutty client?

[00:45:21.530]
No.

[00:45:23.120]
Honestly, right when you ask

[00:45:24.440]
that question, the thing that comes
to mind is sexual harassment

[00:45:26.800]
in the massage field, which is
something we do have to worry about.

[00:45:29.590]
But we’ve been lucky because I think we
established that we know what we’re doing.

[00:45:35.920]
When a client comes in here,

[00:45:36.960]
even if they were going to try and be
inappropriate, if I sit down with you

[00:45:40.320]
and talk to you about, Okay, so
which movement does it hurt when you do?

[00:45:43.350]
You all of a sudden are going to get
the vibe that this is not that place.

[00:45:48.030]
I can’t pull that here.

[00:45:52.360]
Luckily, we don’t have any weird people.

[00:45:55.510]
I would just say our clients…

[00:45:58.370]
I have some people, like we have

[00:46:00.120]
a massage therapist who drives from
Bolloyte to work here two days a day.

[00:46:03.640]
Holy cow.
Maybe she’s here today.

[00:46:05.640]
Wow.

[00:46:06.640]
She also works at another
place that’s closer to home.

[00:46:09.040]
I recently asked her, I’m like, How do
you like it here versus your other place?

[00:46:13.010]
S he goes, Our client, well, A,

[00:46:16.560]
she likes it here, but she said
our clients are just different.

[00:46:18.910]
She’s like, I don’t know if it’s Madison
or what it is, but I love my clients here.

[00:46:24.150]
I can’t bring myself to not
work here and not see them.

[00:46:26.890]
We have the best clients.

[00:46:30.110]
I don’t know if there’s one specific

[00:46:33.600]
scenario or example that’s happened,
but our people are great.

[00:46:37.390]
They support us.

[00:46:38.330]
They’ll come to our
customer appreciation events.

[00:46:40.960]
I

[00:46:42.360]
had a whole spiel at our 10 year
anniversary party,

[00:46:46.600]
and I started talking about a timeline
of what’s happened over the years.

[00:46:49.530]
And all of a sudden
I was like, I’m not going to cry.

[00:46:52.710]
I started crying.

[00:46:53.680]
I’m like, Okay, I’m just
trying to get my words out.

[00:46:55.840]
I just made eye contact with this one
client who’s been coming here forever.

[00:46:59.030]
And that’s how I got through
the rest of my spiel without crying.

[00:47:02.350]
And I was like, Apologize.

[00:47:03.720]
I’m like, Sorry, I staring
at you the whole time.

[00:47:05.960]
He’s like, No, you’re not supposed
to do that when you’re…

[00:47:07.830]
You’re supposed to not focus
on one person too long.

[00:47:11.000]
And he was like, No, it was totally fine.

[00:47:12.850]
I got you.

[00:47:14.410]
That’s awesome.
Yeah.

[00:47:15.630]
So I don’t know.
We just have the.

[00:47:16.870]
Best people.
That’s incredible.

[00:47:19.040]
Yeah.
It’s so interesting that you’ve been

[00:47:20.950]
in essentially two offices over the course
of 10 years, which, I mean, we’ve been in.

[00:47:26.800]
I don’t even want to count.
It’s been a lot.

[00:47:28.470]
A long time.
It’s been a lot, yeah.

[00:47:30.950]
Because you always like
the next thing, the next thing.

[00:47:34.230]
Or landlord’s lame.

[00:47:38.400]
Or we had one where they
started doing nails next door.

[00:47:41.720]
And then the crew starts
complaining about the smell.

[00:47:43.850]
The smell is really strong.

[00:47:45.200]
I don’t know much about.

[00:47:46.270]
Nails, but I don’t do them
here for that reason.

[00:47:48.850]
Yeah, not cool.
So it’s just interesting.

[00:47:50.520]
You got.
To just…

[00:47:51.310]
I mean, I think when
you say stuff like that,

[00:47:53.710]
I think in part we’ve just gotten lucky
because the first space I moved in,

[00:47:57.760]
I didn’t anticipate that we’d
be there as long as we were.

[00:48:00.470]
And then we were just outgrowing it.

[00:48:02.600]
So even if Clerks tower hadn’t told us

[00:48:04.200]
they were going to demolish the buildings,
we were outgrowing that space anyways

[00:48:07.050]
because we had
three treatment rooms in there.

[00:48:09.710]
So it was the two that
the girl and I shared.

[00:48:12.280]
And then at one point we had

[00:48:13.510]
an esthetician come rent
and that didn’t last very long.

[00:48:17.520]
And then eventually they both left
and I was using all three rooms.

[00:48:20.000]
But there were eight of us
in only three treatment rooms.

[00:48:22.350]
So we had to be very strategic about like,

[00:48:25.240]
okay, you work from nine to two, and then
I have my first client from 2 30 to 830.

[00:48:29.920]
Sure.
Just the turnover.

[00:48:30.800]
Yeah.
Oh, it was awful.

[00:48:32.520]
Then we were constantly having
to worry about being overbooked.

[00:48:35.320]
I would work with your staff to be like,

[00:48:37.280]
Okay, if there’s more than three people
on the schedule at the same time, tell me,

[00:48:41.310]
because that’s an emergency,
this is not possible.

[00:48:44.600]
Wow.

[00:48:44.760]
So they actually emailed me about it
the other day and they’re like, Oh,

[00:48:47.680]
we noticed four people are
on the schedule at the same time.

[00:48:49.830]
I was like, Oh, yeah, I forgot to tell
you, that’s not a thing anymore.

[00:48:54.520]
That’s.
Awesome.

[00:48:55.610]
But yeah, so there’s just all the crazy…
It was a long time coming.

[00:48:59.270]
We needed to move out of that space way
earlier than we did.

[00:49:03.370]
Better late than never.

[00:49:04.720]
So you’ve been in here.
Five months?

[00:49:06.690]
Yeah, since May of this year, of 2022.

[00:49:09.930]
All right.

[00:49:11.000]
So you seem pretty
established here already.

[00:49:12.770]
Well, we had a lot of the stuff,
but yeah, it was…

[00:49:15.480]
We’re getting there.
All right.

[00:49:17.480]
I mean, like build out and all
that stuff or whatever you had to do.

[00:49:20.680]
Hire now.

[00:49:20.830]
The build out actually, we didn’t change
anything with the walls, which was nice.

[00:49:25.120]
It was a tax firm before we moved in, and
so they had all these individual offices.

[00:49:28.730]
I was like, perfect.

[00:49:30.120]
These will be our
individual massage rooms.

[00:49:31.760]
Nice.
Yeah.

[00:49:33.360]
And we actually bought this space.

[00:49:34.550]
So this is a business condo.

[00:49:37.560]
I didn’t even know that was a thing.
Yeah.

[00:49:39.810]
Well, I bought one, so that’s how.
I know.

[00:49:42.280]
Okay.
Yeah.

[00:49:42.550]
Before that, I went to know it.
Yeah.

[00:49:45.080]
No, I was working with a real estate agent

[00:49:46.880]
and he showed me this and he
was like, You’re buying it.

[00:49:48.560]
I was like, I can’t afford
to buy a building that size.

[00:49:50.240]
He was like, No, it’s a condo.
I was like, That’s a thing?

[00:49:52.350]
I knew about residential condos.
Yeah, so it works out.

[00:49:55.270]
I mean, there’s, of course, the headaches
of owning versus renting.

[00:49:59.590]
Our heat went out in the cold and.
I got a paper.

[00:50:03.570]
Versus calling my landlord
and being like, Come fix my heat.

[00:50:07.880]
But yeah, I think so we
plan to be here for a.

[00:50:11.140]
Long time.
That’s cool.

[00:50:12.850]
That’s super cool.

[00:50:15.760]
Massage, there’s like 50 gazillion places

[00:50:19.130]
that have gone up in the past,
maybe even 10 years.

[00:50:23.920]
You mentioned massage and view,

[00:50:25.070]
but there’s everywhere,
strip mall comes up, massage goes up.

[00:50:29.050]
Where that was not necessarily
the case 10 years ago.

[00:50:32.490]
So is that a trend?

[00:50:34.450]
Massage is becoming more well known as
not just a luxury.

[00:50:39.690]
There’s nice spas like Sundara,

[00:50:41.720]
but for those types of things,
you’re really going there for the

[00:50:44.370]
pools and the hot tubs and the environment
and take the day.

[00:50:49.090]
It’s becoming more well known to get

[00:50:50.990]
a massage for pain and for tension
and to help with that.

[00:50:55.030]
You can still come relax.

[00:50:56.430]
And there’s, like I said,
therapeutic benefits of that.

[00:50:59.650]
But it’s becoming more well known
when the massage school opened here.

[00:51:03.680]
It was probably around that same time

[00:51:04.950]
because I think the massage therapy
at Madison College opened…

[00:51:08.210]
I graduated
in 2010, and I think I was like the fifth

[00:51:11.970]
class, and it was weird because
they were like nine months long.

[00:51:15.410]
So maybe they were open for about
three years or so before I went there.

[00:51:19.770]
So that timeline adds up
that they start teaching more massage

[00:51:24.070]
therapists and all of a sudden
more places pop up.

[00:51:26.850]
Sure.
Interesting.

[00:51:27.960]
Yeah.
So it’s funny.

[00:51:30.040]
But anyone who wants to start their own
business should definitely listen to this

[00:51:33.080]
podcast because they’re not always like,
Oh, I’m just going to go do it.

[00:51:36.080]
And there’s going to be
no trouble or challenges.

[00:51:38.040]
Sure.
Perfect segue, though.

[00:51:39.390]
What are the top three challenges that you

[00:51:41.680]
had to deal with that you
didn’t necessarily expect?

[00:51:44.080]
You just don’t know what you don’t know.

[00:51:45.910]
And so everything for me
was learning along the way.

[00:51:49.440]
I just had to figure everything out,

[00:51:50.920]
which is not a bad thing to have because
I never struggle with perfectionism.

[00:51:54.550]
But even things

[00:51:55.970]
like figuring out software, scheduling
systems, employee laws, employment law.

[00:52:01.840]
Most lessons you learn the hard way.

[00:52:05.760]
So hiring was probably the biggest lesson.

[00:52:07.550]
I had to learn how to vet better,
how to do those Zoom interviews first.

[00:52:13.610]
I think also just learning software.

[00:52:17.130]
My philosophy now is start
with the end in mind.

[00:52:19.760]
Some

[00:52:21.560]
softwares only have certain capabilities
because they’re free or 20 bucks a month.

[00:52:27.230]
But then you eventually outgrow them.

[00:52:29.590]
And it’s this huge hassle to switch.

[00:52:31.800]
So we stuck with the software that had

[00:52:33.650]
nowhere near the capabilities that we
needed and put off switching because it’s

[00:52:38.470]
this huge undertaking when you
switch a booking software.

[00:52:41.410]
All your clients,

[00:52:42.430]
then you got to make sure people
didn’t get double charged or not pay.

[00:52:46.240]
So start with the end in mind,
I’d rather pay an extra $20, $30,

[00:52:50.090]
$50 a month for a software that I’m going
to grow into rather than have to have

[00:52:54.930]
these be cheap in the beginning
and have to grow into it.

[00:52:59.890]
And then ask for help.

[00:53:01.560]
I think because I…

[00:53:02.920]
That was the biggest lesson I’ve learned

[00:53:04.650]
is I had so many issues because I
was trying to do everything myself.

[00:53:08.560]
In the beginning, you have to.

[00:53:09.920]
You’re the sole approver,

[00:53:10.960]
you’re the bookkeeper, you’re the
marketer, you do everything.

[00:53:13.790]
But then eventually,

[00:53:15.090]
I went from when I started asking people
for help, that’s when my business really

[00:53:20.050]
started scaling, not just
slowly growing and maintaining.

[00:53:26.370]
So if I wanted to make an employee
handbook, I hired a lawyer to do that.

[00:53:30.450]
Or if I wanted somebody

[00:53:32.090]
to make sure the space was clean,
I hire a cleaning company.

[00:53:35.200]
If I want somebody to help answer…

[00:53:36.630]
We were answering our own phones.

[00:53:39.760]
People would leave messages.

[00:53:40.770]
I’d call them back.

[00:53:42.750]
It was a disaster because I was being
cheap where I was like, I can do it.

[00:53:46.810]
And there is a learning curve
of hiring staff, right?

[00:53:49.970]
You have to train them.

[00:53:51.280]
So that was the biggest thing.
Like, challenges.

[00:53:53.690]
I had to break myself from that habit

[00:53:56.010]
of wanting to do everything
myself as an entrepreneur.

[00:53:59.440]
You’re like, I’ll
do it better myself.

[00:54:00.430]
We just want to because
there’s certain ego.

[00:54:04.040]
Well, yeah.
And you know you’re going to do it best.

[00:54:06.480]
Yes.
No one can do it like I do it.

[00:54:08.670]
We joke all the time about that.

[00:54:10.350]
But yeah, there’s

[00:54:12.040]
being able to do it best and then actually
being able to get it done.

[00:54:15.230]
The right way.

[00:54:16.000]
And it’s like, yeah,
sometimes you have to pay for that.

[00:54:18.350]
But then that was a huge learning

[00:54:20.530]
experience for me that once I finally
started getting more in that mindset,

[00:54:24.520]
that’s when business really
started to take off.

[00:54:26.590]
So I’m like, oh,
there’s something to this.

[00:54:30.080]
Fair.
Fair.

[00:54:31.030]
That’s awesome.

[00:54:32.040]
Well, Kaitlin,
thank you so much for being on the show.

[00:54:34.040]
Thanks for having me.
This is awesome.

[00:54:35.280]
You have a cool space.

[00:54:36.000]
Great conversation.
Thanks.

[00:54:37.120]
Yeah, you’ll have to come get a massage.

[00:54:38.150]
You sound like our perfect client now.

[00:54:41.400]
A relaxing one.
Yeah, relaxing one.

[00:54:42.800]
We’ll make sure of that.

[00:54:44.010]
I was just thinking on the way here,

[00:54:45.900]
I thought, what is the last
time I got a massage?

[00:54:48.320]
It’s probably with my wife and the
woman that tried to kill me.

[00:54:51.360]
No, yeah.
Okay, we’ll change that experience.

[00:54:52.350]
Not the same person.
Yeah.

[00:54:53.670]
At least as far as I know.

[00:54:56.240]
This has been
Authentic Business Adventures.

[00:54:57.840]
It’s a business program that brings you
the struggle stories

[00:55:00.330]
and triumphant successes
of business owners across the land.

[00:55:04.320]
We’re locally underwritten
by the Bank of Sun Prairie.

[00:55:06.200]
If you’re listening or watching this

[00:55:07.590]
on the web, if you could do us a huge
favor, hit the big old thumbs up,

[00:55:11.320]
subscribe, and of course,
comment below and let us know how your

[00:55:14.130]
massages have gone. Yeah.
How you wish they’d go.

[00:55:17.600]
And I don’t know, whatever else

[00:55:18.800]
you want to know about
starting a massage business.

[00:55:20.530]
My name is James Kademan
and Authentic Business Adventures is

[00:55:23.730]
brought to you by Calls on Call,
offering call answering and reception

[00:55:27.810]
services for service businesses
across the country on the web.

[00:55:31.270]
CallsonCall.com.

[00:55:32.880]
And of course, The Bold Business Book,

[00:55:34.590]
a book for the entrepreneur in all of us
available wherever fine books are sold.

[00:55:39.000]
We’d like to thank you,
our wonderful listeners,

[00:55:40.170]
as well as our guest, Kaitlin Rohowetz,
owner of a Better Body Massage.

[00:55:44.910]
Well, Kaitlin, I didn’t ask you website.
What’s your website?

[00:55:48.050]
MadisonBetterBody.com

[00:55:49.750]
MadisonBetterBody.com.

[00:55:51.530]
And where can people
find you address wise?

[00:55:54.240]
We’re at 6515 Grand Teton Plaza.

[00:55:56.640]
So we’re right off of Yellowstone
and Mineral Point Road on the West Side.

[00:55:59.970]
Perfect.
The place to go.

[00:56:02.400]
What else we got here?

[00:56:03.080]
Past episodes can be found
morning, noon, and night.

[00:56:05.080]
The podcast link found at
drawincustomers.com.

[00:56:07.210]
Thank you for watching.

[00:56:08.560]
We will see you next week.
I want you to stay awesome.

[00:56:10.720]
And if you do nothing else,
enjoy your business.