Secrets of Effective Remote Recruitment with Benjamin Zobota

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Benjamin Morone – Zabota

Podcast Overview:

00:00 Create job description with brief, clear information.
05:38 Started with VAs, expanded to diverse roles.
07:38 Philippines time difference affects focus on business.
12:08 Direct hires with companies, no staffing agency fees.
14:44 Determining role, time zone, and budget considerations.
19:10 Executive assistant culture fit crucial for effectiveness.
23:32 Two types of executive assistants for hire.
25:02 Money-back guarantees and flexible 50% down payment.
29:29 Effective onboarding crucial for employee longevity, retention.
32:28 Changed name to show premium service care.
37:45 Screening process designed to gauge candidate authenticity.
40:04 Started staffing in Latin America due to accent.
44:11 Understanding roles and tasks for delegating effectively.
47:59 Client testimonials crucial for niche market success.

Podcast Transcription:

Benjamin Morone [00:00:00]:
And the thing is everyone can recognize GED, like it’s not that hard and it’s very lengthy, it’s very verbose with with all what it says. And so, we realized that like okay we need to make job descriptions that cut through the noise And so really making a job description that is is magnetic. So not using, like, cliche language, not saying, like, we’re looking for a data driven guru or wizard who can, like, do this. Right? Like, people see those, and they just, like, cringe and shut off. That’s what we found and that’s what my recruiter said. She was, like, I applied to your job because you didn’t have anything like that. You don’t have, like, these weird buzzwords and it was just very short and you told me what I needed to know, the skills that I needed, the time zone, salary, like those types of things we we display. And people can make a a quick judgment on if they’re gonna apply or not.

James Kademan [00:00:50]:
You have found Authentic Business Adventures, the business program that brings you the struggle stories and triumphs and successes of business owners across the land. Downloadable audio episodes of the podcast can be found in the podcast link found at draw in customers.com. We are locally underwritten by the Bank of Sun Prairie as well as calls on call extraordinary answering service and the bold business book. Today, we’re welcoming slash preparing to learn from Benjamin Marone of Zubota. So, Benjamin, how is it going today?

Benjamin Morone [00:01:20]:
Everything’s everything’s good. Another day living the dream. Thanks for having me on, James.

James Kademan [00:01:25]:
Everything is good. That’s says every business owner, but sometimes you can just tell that they’re peddling their rails underneath. Let’s start with what is Zibota.

Benjamin Morone [00:01:35]:
Yeah. So Zibota is a recruitment firm, that staffs talent from Central Eastern Europe and then also Latin America into businesses in the States Canada and the United Kingdom. So working mainly with online businesses but there are like home service companies and stuff we also work with more mom and pop for remote roles. So this isn’t anything that would be coordinating like visas and and that type of red tape and headaches. This is all digital remote world, work.

James Kademan [00:02:04]:
Gotcha. To the point of being virtual administrators, or what are they doing?

Benjamin Morone [00:02:09]:
Some virtual administration kind of like VA type of work, but we have a lot of like project managers, sales, developers is a big one especially here in in Central and Eastern Europe. People have been recruiting developers out of here for a couple decades now. And so the IT sphere is is where we operate as as well. Small businesses, solo founders, maybe headcount under 10, but then we have some larger clients as well that are going more towards that mid market.

James Kademan [00:02:36]:
Alright. And did you start this?

Benjamin Morone [00:02:38]:
Yes. I’m the I’m the founder.

James Kademan [00:02:40]:
Nice. And how long ago was that?

Benjamin Morone [00:02:43]:
It would have been August 22. Okay. So almost 2 years.

James Kademan [00:02:47]:
Not too bad. Kind of the oh, man. If memory serves, it’s gonna be end ish of pandemic or probably towards the end of the pandemic.

Benjamin Morone [00:02:56]:
Yeah. Yeah. Towards the end of the pandemic. And I think that if the pandemic didn’t happen, I probably wouldn’t have started this business because the world wouldn’t have been as open to remote work and everyone being on zooms and that just being the the commonplace of what it was for the last several years inside of the pandemic. That really opened my mind opened my eyes to that world of of digital work. Because at the time I was a basically a sales rep appointment setter and I was kind of just bouncing around the world, central Europe, eastern Europe going back and forth between the states and I could just work online and it’s always as long as I hit my KPIs, my numbers, my deliverables, I was good and I could kind of just bounce around. So I thought this is pretty cool maybe I can replicate this and give other people the same opportunity.

James Kademan [00:03:44]:
Nice. So did you have experience of recruiting?

Benjamin Morone [00:03:49]:
No. I didn’t have experience of of recruiting. It’s just kinda interesting. I’ve been in some high growth companies where there was a tech company called Connected in Indianapolis They did a lot of, like, LinkedIn automation software, and I was one of the first 15 employees there. I got to see it go to a 100 100 and 10 employees before I left. And so I could see how people grow teams and operate inside of teams. A lot of the the group was remote when we first started we eventually kind of went in house. So I’d worked in a lot of teams seen how they had grown and then I jumped into the the recruiting side of things.

Benjamin Morone [00:04:22]:
Really what I had noticed at Connected is I was allowed to utilize virtual assistants because I was also in university at the same time. And so juggling a full time role and then also being in university is just like a lot that there’s a lot to handle with that. And so I wanted the virtual assistant to just focus on like sales follow ups, a lot of little like admin work just to save me 2, 3 hours a day so I could focus on still going to school remotely and, like, actually get my degree instead of having to choose 1 or the other.

James Kademan [00:04:50]:
So just to clarify, you as an employee were hiring VAs to help you get your job done?

Benjamin Morone [00:04:57]:
Yeah. I actually ran it by them, and they were they were okay with it. They said, hey. If it’s gonna make you more efficient, then you’re gonna work. And I was like, cool. And they just had to sign some forms, and then we were good to go. I worked a different sales role, the one where I was kind of traveling around and they didn’t allow virtual assistants they were working more in the financial space. So I understand that but that’s kind of how I got that idea because I recognized Ben with a virtual assistant was very, very productive and was better than Ben without a virtual assistant.

James Kademan [00:05:29]:
Interesting. So at that point, you don’t have your business. You gotta find some VAs. How do you go about finding a virtual assistant?

Benjamin Morone [00:05:38]:
Yeah. So I was I’d say I was I was kinda lucky because I had worked in some smaller, like, consulting companies helping out friends, and they had a Slack channel with a bunch of VAs. And it had been dead for a couple years, like, there’s no messages inside of it. And I went through and messaged some people and said hey are you looking for opportunities like I’m trying to build a virtual assistant staffing company and that was kind of the the first kind of iteration of Zibota we were called VA tasks before we switched to to Zibota in the last like year and a half now, where it was just kind of copy paste virtual assistant roles. And now we’ve just gone into more complex development, IT, analysts, those types of things from from here in Central and Eastern Europe. But it started with staffing from the Philippines, Southeast Asia, and then just kinda kept snowballing.

James Kademan [00:06:25]:
So are you actually or did you travel to all these places to find these people, or were you building this remotely?

Benjamin Morone [00:06:32]:
So I was building it remotely until January of 2023. I’m in Warsaw and in Poland, so about 7 hours ahead of you. And it was kind of a it was kind of a perfect move because my company was very small and still growing and I needed to keep the the cost very low as I built. I didn’t wanna just, like, go back home and and go back home to, like, mom and dad, and that’s a blessing to be able to fall back on that. But I wanted to be able to kinda operate and grow my company independently. So I moved to to Europe in January 2023. It kinda gives me the the time difference where there’s, like, those 6 hours before the states wakes up. So I have this, like, deep work block where pretty much all my friends and family are are in the states.

Benjamin Morone [00:07:16]:
I have friends here, but they’re not really contacting me during the the mornings as much because they know it’s the deep work blocks. So I kinda, like, doubled my days and gave me, like, the the maximum of maximum amount of chances to succeed just because I got more hours throughout the day.

James Kademan [00:07:32]:
Interesting. So what made you decide on Poland versus the Philippines or any other place?

Benjamin Morone [00:07:38]:
Mhmm. So the Philippines is just time difference. Like, the max I really ever wanna staff from or go from the the state since I’m still mainly focused my business on the western world, with like sales calls and clients and those types of things. It’s about 9 hours I don’t want to go farther than than that Philippines is 12, 13, 14 and it just it gets it’s just deep it’s like you’re in another world to be honest. Right. With Poland, it was kind of a goldilocks zone. It was very modern, it was very easy to get home back to the states. I fly there’s direct flights to Miami, New York, LA, or I just fly to Amsterdam which is an hour and a half and then I can fly anywhere in the US, from Amsterdam.

Benjamin Morone [00:08:21]:
And so the 6 hour time difference from the east coast was very nice. It was kind of the perfect zone. Cost of living is is very cheap. And then the people like like Americans are very positive about America and and so it was just like a nice place to be. I felt pretty at home when I visited here. I’d been to Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, Hungary kind of all over and Poland just was kinda my favorite. It was a little Goldilocks. So

James Kademan [00:08:47]:
Alright. That’s cool. So had you been to Poland before?

Benjamin Morone [00:08:51]:
Before I moved here, yes. So it was in August of 22. Yeah, August of 22 right as I kind of started my company like 2 weeks before actually. Because I was still working a sales role but that summer of of 2022 is when I did a lot of the traveling. Kinda just maxed out the the 90 day visa free to the EU and just ran around 2 weeks at a time, with some coworkers and just explored. Because we were coming off the pandemic where it was like, okay. You can’t leave your house for 2 years. Say

James Kademan [00:09:20]:
it right.

Benjamin Morone [00:09:20]:
We’re kinda like itching to, like, go travel or go do these things that we wanted to do several years earlier. And so right when it kinda started to cool down, it was like, okay. Let’s go let’s go crazy.

James Kademan [00:09:32]:
So is the intention when you’re traveling to find a place to put up home base, or was the intention

Benjamin Morone [00:09:37]:
was to

James Kademan [00:09:37]:
have fun and you stumbled upon Poland more or less?

Benjamin Morone [00:09:41]:
When we first like, our first couple countries, it wasn’t really like that, but it was almost like as we went along the way, friends and coworkers are like, oh, I like Hungary more. I wanna go stay in in Hungary. Oh, I like Romania more. I kinda wanna stay here. And one of the last places I went was Poland, and I was like, it’d be nice to to live here. It’s it’s really nice. And so then I just made it my goal when I got back to the the States from August. I wanna move over there in January, so now’s the the time to grind.

James Kademan [00:10:08]:
Nice. So are you there temporarily or you’re expat all the way?

Benjamin Morone [00:10:12]:
I’m expat all the way. I’m still a US citizen. I I don’t think I’ll renounce that, but, I’m a resident here. Yeah.

James Kademan [00:10:19]:
Okay. And how big of a deal is that? I know in some countries, it’s a bigger deal than others.

Benjamin Morone [00:10:24]:
Yeah. Well, it’s not as easy, I feel like, as as America in some aspects for sure, especially around, like, business stuff. It’s just like you submit like a residency form and then it’s like okay we’ll let you know in like maybe 6 months, maybe 8 months, like maybe 9 months and they just give you a stamp on your passport. And when you travel in the EU, it’s a big red stamp and it basically says in Polish like this person’s applying. So even though they’re from outside of Europe, they can still be in the EU. So it was a little bit of a headache. It was a little bit scary doing that. My lawyer here he’s he’s very good.

Benjamin Morone [00:10:59]:
He was a referral from some friends here. So it wasn’t as bad I guess as it could have been because what happens if I’m living here I have an apartment and then 6 months later they’re like yeah. Sorry. You haven’t been approved. You need to leave the country. It’s like, hey. You gotta pack up everything. So luckily, I was approved and and everything’s good.

James Kademan [00:11:17]:
Gotcha. So when you say attorney, you’re talking immigration attorney? Yeah. Okay. Mhmm. Alright. And they helped you walk through the steps of, like, hey. This is what you have to do?

Benjamin Morone [00:11:27]:
Yeah. Because it’s it’s very funny with Poland because it’s like, at some places, in some government offices, it’s just like you go to the right one, you get the right person. It’s almost like a DMV. You get the right person in the right stall where they just speak English very well, you know. Other ones, it’s just like you ask someone and they’re just like I don’t speak English, you know, or they’ll write it down and so you have to like if you have an immigration lawyer here, it’s it’s very nice because he just speaks Polish and explains what needs to be done. And all the forms are in Polish and they translate it and it’s it’s nice.

James Kademan [00:11:58]:
Got it. That’s awesome. So when you’re finding people to work as well, let me back up a step. Are they considered employees of yours? Are they

Benjamin Morone [00:12:08]:
Yeah. So the the way I work is they’re direct hires with the the companies in the states. We’re not like a typical staffing agency where it’s, like, taking a percentage of wages and and those types of things. That’s how it was when I first started out, but I realized like the only person winning in that scenario is the staffing agency. In human nature is just to work with who you’re working with, and so it was like I was a weird like middleman, and I felt like clients didn’t really like it and and also the the people who are staffing didn’t really like it as as much because they saw, oh, this person’s getting a percentage of of my hard work which I agree with them. Right? We’ve done employees before but the majority of them were independent contractors especially since a lot of our our hires are more like part time. It’s like a 3, 4 hours a day. Maybe can you do this before I wake up so I can just work on this project once I wake up back in the states? Because a lot of of those types of like free work arrangements.

Benjamin Morone [00:13:00]:
So the person in the states they’re sleeping it’s 3:4 AM, the person in Europe starting getting some project management ready confirming, like, calendar emails, like, all those types of things.

James Kademan [00:13:10]:
Nice. So can you tell me I’m business owner, and I’m thinking of outsourcing to Mhmm. People like what you’re offering. What is the advantage of going through something like that versus just hiring domestically in the US?

Benjamin Morone [00:13:24]:
So one is is obviously the the cost savings. 50, 60% cheaper here in Europe and and Latin America. You can get a little bit higher than that in in savings. It’s that, but it’s also sometimes the employees, and and this is what I find most of the time, are just more grateful for an opportunity and and very hardworking. They’re like, we wanna work with the US market. We wanna have our our English and and have that on our resume, and and have it be really it’s almost like a mark of pride for them. Right? Like, oh I work for an American company, I work for this big agency over there and and so it’s kind of a status symbol almost and so people really fight and keep their jobs. What I found is sometimes when I’m talking to small business owners they’re like, yeah my local employees are just kinda seeing me as a paycheck.

Benjamin Morone [00:14:10]:
They’ve been here for years and they’re just kinda like, how do I say it? Like, kinda just chilling and along for the ride versus some of these, these outsourced employees or or outsourced contractors are very, hardworking, and they’re just they have a different attitude, I would say.

James Kademan [00:14:25]:
Interesting. Well, it’s totally worth it right there.

Benjamin Morone [00:14:27]:
Yeah.

James Kademan [00:14:28]:
So you work in a lot of different countries, it sounds like. How do you or I guess, do you guide your client to, like, hey. This sounds like this person Poland’s the right place for you or Latin America. How do you choose where you’re gonna pick someone from for a given

Benjamin Morone [00:14:44]:
Yes. Yeah. So during kind of our initial calls and when I first meet with the clients, we’re discerning okay like what is the the role? Do you need it to be on the same time zone or do you want something that’s asynchronous? Usually by answering the first question what what is the role you can figure out okay is this going to be asynchronous or is this going to be synchronous on that same time zone. It depends on budget as well because in Latin America I found it’s a little bit cheaper than the EU depending on the EU country you hire from or the European country you hire from, it can be different. We go for places called strategic locations, it’s kind of little thing that we came up with where the taxes are advantageous for that contractor, right? With the US it’s it’s pretty simple. It’s similar to like 10.99 stuff you just need to keep some forms for your your records. So it doesn’t really matter as much on the the US side, but for the independent contractor or the micro entrepreneur micro business in Serbia or Georgia the country not the state like it matters what the taxes look like in their locale because you don’t want to be paying someone 2 ks a month and then it’s Europe. The taxes are high, especially if they’re in the EU, and then they just get hosed.

Benjamin Morone [00:15:55]:
And they’re like, okay. Like, I’m not making that much money. I can’t support myself. So we want tax to be low. We want the time zones to be solid. I don’t wanna go more than 9 hours ahead, usually 6 or 7. And then, the English level to also be very, very high. So education system, we’re looking at, okay, what are the countries that speak English the the highest? What’s the cost of living look like? For example, in Poland if someone’s wanting to hire like a project manager there’s big differences between someone located in Warsaw and Krakow major cities versus someone in smaller towns like Luge or Lublin like there’s a massive difference in wages with that.

Benjamin Morone [00:16:34]:
Just because for Warsaw this is where all the a lot of Ukrainians came after the the war or during the the war and so rents are very high here cost of living is just very very high in Warsaw compared to a lot of places in central and eastern Europe. But if you go higher in a smaller Polish town, it’s it’s significantly cheaper with with wages and they can afford a better quality of life. And so just kind of walking through that process and and that’s something we go over when I first meet with clients.

James Kademan [00:17:02]:
Nice. So how do you find people to work in these smaller towns? Because I imagine

Benjamin Morone [00:17:08]:
Mhmm.

James Kademan [00:17:08]:
I’m assuming that it’s not as easy, but maybe I don’t know. With the Internet now, maybe it is.

Benjamin Morone [00:17:13]:
Yeah. So a lot of it’s, different groups. We run like Telegram groups, little social media or the messaging application. Telegram groups are big especially here in Central and Eastern Europe, in Latin America it’s like Whatsapp. A lot of headhunting on LinkedIn, different job boards. My agency mainly focuses on actively hunting the talent instead of just kind of posting a job description and having them come in. So one of the tools we use in in the tool shed, but it’s it just seems like the the

James Kademan [00:17:43]:
quality of talent when you’re just actively hunting you can find

Benjamin Morone [00:17:43]:
some real real hidden gems, a talent when you’re just actively hunting you can find some real real hidden gems especially if there’s some sort of strange marketing tech that they need to know. If there’s some software that not a lot of people use well then that’s gonna make my searching pool significantly smaller. So we really just have to put in the the elbow grease there.

James Kademan [00:18:01]:
Gotcha. That’s super cool. So when clients are coming to you, they’re coming to you saying, hey. I need a project manager for whatever the software I’m building or something like that or any project manager and coders to build this software. What are clients typically coming to you with?

Benjamin Morone [00:18:19]:
So it really depends on the the size of the client. Some of our larger clients, it’s it’s always development work, just because the savings are pretty significant when it’s compared to the States. So we have an IT, Cybersecurity clients, and they’re more IT data analysts, full stack developers, those types of scenarios. For smaller businesses, it’s mainly like an executive assistant or a project manager, maybe an SDR sales development representative to make calls. Maybe a customer support individual. A lot of the roles are maybe a little bit more part time, but then they grow into many more hours.

James Kademan [00:18:58]:
How do you let’s talk about the executive assistant. Mhmm. Something like that can be very broad. So how to find someone that’s a good fit for the specific executive that’s looking to hire someone?

Benjamin Morone [00:19:10]:
Yeah. So with executive assistants, I find that it really comes down to the the culture fit. I mean, any role comes down to to culture fit to a degree, but with executive assistant like that person kind of becomes your just right hand man. If you don’t get along with them, they don’t share the same values, that working relationship is just not going to be effective even if you have your hopes really high, right? And so it’s a lot of me asking around like, okay, what is the the culture? What is your more personality type? How do you operate? How do you communicate? These are things I’m asking the client because a really good executive assistant is going to ask me those questions or ask for the answers to those questions in an interview. And so we’re just kind of like matching personalities for the executive assistants. Executive assistants sometimes I would say people hire them almost, like, too early and the way you prevent hiring someone where now you’re, like, oh, I have to just come up with tasks for them to do. You don’t wanna be in that scenario because then you’re just kinda, like, over hired, you’re kinda overstaffed is doing a time audit. So, looking over a week and tracking basically everything that you’re doing during that work day and once you look at that that week you can make a list of okay these are things and activities that I like doing and they’re they’re making me money and they’re actually impacting the business.

Benjamin Morone [00:20:28]:
And then this other list is things that maybe I don’t like doing them as much. Maybe they’re not impacting the business that can be an eliminate slash delegate list. If you have kind of enough of those tasks and you can kind of add up you know, how much time it takes you because you’ve been tracking your time, you can know, okay, roughly I have 5 to 10 hours a week. Maybe I have 20 hours a week and and so on.

James Kademan [00:20:49]:
Gotcha. Let me, I wanna wrap my head around this because it sounds pretty cool. You’re talking project manager. You’re talking developers. You’re talking administrative assistants. So, essentially, I’m business business owner. I come to you and I’m like, Benjamin, here’s the situation I need. Whatever.

James Kademan [00:21:07]:
Let’s just say I need someone to post some social media stuff. I need a marketing person. Is that what I’m coming to you with? And then you’re asking me questions trying to figure out specifically who you have that would fit that job description, so to speak, or how does that work?

Benjamin Morone [00:21:23]:
Correct. So usually, the the clients are coming in and they say, hey. I have this problem. I know it needs to be solved or this work is just piling up. Is this something that’s capable of of being done remotely? And I ask about their systems in place. Is this something where it needs to be done in person? Is it like mailing campaigns? You need someone to like be in the office or is this just posting on social media? Is this running some facebook ads? Some media buying those types of marketing activities and a lot of that really just comes down to to when we’re speaking with them because there’s some things that probably should be kept in in house and in person and it also depends on the the business owner. Sometimes business owners who built digital agencies they’re just like, yeah, I have team in Africa, I have team in Latin America, I have team everywhere. I was just referred to you like let’s let’s get going and get this role.

Benjamin Morone [00:22:14]:
Other times it’s someone’s first hire, in their business or it’s their 1st hire, like, ever, not just remote. Right? And so, sometimes with with younger business owners, it it’s like that. And I like to work with all of them because it’s like for a younger business owner, let’s say you staff someone who’s just part time and they become full time. It’s cool to see that journey over a year, year and a half. We’re like, hey, that person we place is still there. We’re still actively helping them out and that businesses has grown so much more. It’s cool to kinda see the the light bulb go on, where it’s like, oh, I can delegate and buy back this time if my time is worth $50 an hour and I pay someone $15 an hour to take, you know, 40 hours a week off of my plate. Like, now I’ve literally have duplicated myself, and I can put 40 hours back into my my business.

James Kademan [00:23:04]:
Very cool. So someone like, the executive assistant just has me my gears turning here. Mhmm. Because executive assistant, a lot of times, they gotta be somewhat of a jack of all trades.

Benjamin Morone [00:23:16]:
Mhmm. Or

James Kademan [00:23:16]:
someone’s gonna say, hey, do this thing. And then after you’re done with that, do this crazy thing that’s completely unrelated and has a completely different skill set with this thing and do all these things. How do you find people that are that diverse in their skill set?

Benjamin Morone [00:23:32]:
Yeah. So the executive assistant hires is pretty common, but there’s 2 kind of main types that I found. There’s ones that are used to working in smaller teams, maybe digital agencies, just smaller businesses where I would say they’re not truly an executive assistant. They’re more of just like this, like, ops manager, product manager, or kind of that jack of all trades. And then there’s people who come from more of a corporate background where they’re like I was assisting 5 executives at McKinsey like there’s a McKinsey branch here in in Poland like there’s a lot of applicants for for roles like that where it’s like oh I supported these 5 for people, ran their calendars, ran expenses, like all those types of things. Someone who’s a smaller business owner they’re wanting to hire an executive assistant jack of all trades will not be a good match with someone who has maybe 5 years of experience as an executive assistant, a true executive assistant assisting 4 or 5 executives at a large company. That’s not always that’s not like the right fit. Usually for the executive assistant stuff, for smaller businesses we find 1, 2 years an executive assistant maybe they’ve been a project manager before.

Benjamin Morone [00:24:36]:
They’ve actually worked with a solo founder or a pair of co founders. That’s kind of the more profile that we’re going for when we’re trying to hire an executive assistant for a smaller business.

James Kademan [00:24:47]:
Gotcha. So someone comes to Zuboda, Tell me how you work because if you’re not taking a nut of the hourly rate or whatever the thing Mhmm. Are you taking a flat rate to find the person, or how does that work?

Benjamin Morone [00:24:59]:
Yeah. Flat rate to to find the person.

James Kademan [00:25:02]:
Okay.

Benjamin Morone [00:25:02]:
Money back guarantees and 50% down, like, it’s it’s split up and and there’s different ways we can we can work it out. We just do placement fee. I’ve just found after running multiple different kind of revenue models through it, like, this is just the easiest thing. And it just works clients like it. I had someone last week where they’re like oh I just love this model I don’t wanna like pay you and have you take a percentage. And although taking a percentage the business can get a lot of MRR with that. It’s it’s something where the client relationship I found gets a little strained after maybe 4 or 5 months because people like, like, I could just save $200 a month, $300 a month, whatever the staffing agency is taking by maybe I don’t want to say going behind their back but moving and and saying well I’m gonna hire this person directly. And so those are scenarios that I’ve had happen.

Benjamin Morone [00:25:53]:
I just don’t really like those scenarios. So depending on depending on the size of the client we have, like, single placement for 13 1 to 3 heads, and then we also have, like, retained. So some of our larger clients are just paying a a monthly retainer, and they’re, like, we need to make 20 hires over the year. Can you guys just work on this?

James Kademan [00:26:11]:
Gotcha. Okay. Mhmm. Yeah. I figured you didn’t work for free. It’s interesting because we’ve used local domestic staffing agencies before.

Benjamin Morone [00:26:20]:
Mhmm.

James Kademan [00:26:21]:
And you’re right. Every time we would pay them, I think I could be paying this employee well, a lot of times, it was, like, 30, 40% more. They had crazy margins. After a while well, a lot of times you’d end up with someone that you weren’t really a big fan of, and you’re like, I’m paying an extra nut for nothing because I do a very good job finding bad employees. But, I mean, you expect a placement agency to get you the best, essentially. That’s what I feel that you’re paying the premium for. I’m probably not correct, but that’s what I feel like I was paying for. So when you pay that that knot, I don’t remember if it was 6 months or something like that, where then they become your employee, whatever it was.

James Kademan [00:27:02]:
It was a healthy knot, and you’re right. After a while, you’re like, ugh. You are the most expensive person that we have on payroll, and you’re not the best based on total outlay of cash that we have to have to keep you. So it’s interesting model. I like it. So when you you have, I imagine, a pool of people all over the world, I’m gonna dare say. And these people, I imagine, do they have other gigs and stuff like that? Or how does that work with you, you having a client and then you having someone that can do the work for that client?

Benjamin Morone [00:27:36]:
Yeah. So sometimes usually not with clients of mine. It’s rare that I have, like, an executive assistant who, who’s working for multiple of of my clients. We do have part time placements, and I and I previously mentioned that we do have a lot of part time placements. But I found if someone’s you know working multiple jobs working 3 different gigs like one’s gonna take priority and the types of businesses we like to work with are on that upward trajectory where the person may start as part time, but they’re like, hey. In 2 months, this is probably gonna be full time because we’re just keep growing. And so we kinda try to stay away from any type of, oh, this person’s working 3 jobs and they want another gig because they have 2, 3 hours extra a day. Those aren’t really the the best fits.

Benjamin Morone [00:28:21]:
And I would say some of some of our our failed placements have been from scenarios like that. And so when I when I look at it, we we look for people working other jobs and and those types of things.

James Kademan [00:28:35]:
Gotcha. So the ones it’s a great example here. So the ones that start out part time then advance to full time, what does the employee or the worker I don’t know what they’re gonna be called. Mhmm. Employee, what do they do between that time where they’re part time over here building up to full time? Do they have another? Yeah.

Benjamin Morone [00:28:52]:
So How does that work? So sometimes what we found a lot of times is it’s like, stay at home moms. So

James Kademan [00:28:58]:
Oh, gotcha. Okay.

Benjamin Morone [00:28:59]:
That’s something where, like, when we’re hiring from Latin America, we found, like, there’s a lot of stay at home moms that hey they they worked in the the workforce for 4 or 5 years and then they took some parental leave, and now they want to get back into it and they want to kind of ramp up, from there. So that’s that’s kind of a profile that we’ve found is is been pretty repeatable, I guess.

James Kademan [00:29:21]:
Gotcha. Alright. And tell me about longevity and retention because I imagine that’s a headache that you don’t have full control over, if any. Mhmm.

Benjamin Morone [00:29:29]:
Yeah. What I found is the the biggest thing with longevity and retention is making sure the onboarding is is correct. So every time a placement, let’s say, doesn’t go as well as we hoped, we’re gonna have an exit interview with the candidate, but then also the the client and figure out okay what went wrong. I remember one of my first placements that didn’t go as well as I would have liked or hoped. I asked them about okay how long or how much did you communicate with them in the first couple of weeks? They’re like well we had one zoom call and then we had another the next week. It’s like well no matter who the person is no matter where they’re located if I came into your business today James and you met with me once I would be terrible like I wouldn’t be good you know And so I realized, I really need to create a bulletproof onboarding process for this, and that would increase retention and it and it does. So the biggest thing is making sure that that onboarding is is really good with a company contextual onboarding. So like what are the values, this is who we are, this is the org chart, this is our philosophies around payment, those types of things.

Benjamin Morone [00:30:33]:
And then a role specific onboarding that’s a little bit more in-depth, over the 1st couple weeks where you’re meeting with them 3 4 times a week doesn’t need to be a 45 minute zoom meeting can be 10 15 minute check-in. Just to make sure that they’re understanding everything that’s going on and you can get feedback on your onboarding process and make sure that it’s really good as you bring on more people into your company. So onboarding the 1st 60 days first 30 days, if you can get that really, really, really right, the person is gonna stay with you. If it’s, oh, I’m just available on Slack or Microsoft Teams, just hit hit me up if you have a question. That’s where you run into problems 90 days down the road.

James Kademan [00:31:10]:
Gotcha. Fair. Totally fair. I would love to say that I’ve never done that, but I am totally guilty. We we all have. I I

Benjamin Morone [00:31:17]:
I did it internally in my my own company. Like, it’s everyone has done that. So

James Kademan [00:31:22]:
Yeah. You get busy and you’re like, you’re a smart person. There’s a bicycle. Go learn how to ride it. Right? We we showed you the video about how to ride it, but eventually Yeah.

Benjamin Morone [00:31:31]:
On the

James Kademan [00:31:31]:
bike and and move. Tell me about the name. Where does the BOTA come from?

Benjamin Morone [00:31:37]:
Yeah. So I was I was VA tasked for a while, and I was just like, there’s a 1000000 different VA companies. And VA companies, their unique selling proposition, and I wouldn’t say it’s unique because everyone has it since they’re a VA company, it’s just price, right? And I was like, well I don’t wanna just do VA placements, I don’t wanna have like a VA like staffing farm. I wanna find out how I can find these roles that would be actual substitutes of U. S. Roles that are complex. So instead of paying someone in the state 6 figures you pay someone overseas 50, 60 ks. How can I find those types of roles? How can I place those types of roles? And if I have a name like VA tasks a candidate applying to a job understands the virtual assistant world and they’re not going to look at that job with the same status and the same respect as if it’s the name something else.

Benjamin Morone [00:32:28]:
And client wise I felt the same way where people would hop on calls and they they kinda it was kind of like low status I would say versus if we had some other name I could meet clients in the the middle and perform a premium service and work well with them. Zuboda means care in in Russian, I was staffing a lot from Ukraine So I wanted people to understand like there’s a I mean in in Ukraine if people don’t know many speak many people speak Russian like primarily and especially in eastern and in central Ukraine. In the west a lot of them mainly speak Ukrainian, right? Anyway I wanted them to understand that we care and it’s like a real company here because what I noticed when I wasn’t based here it was fairly hard to recruit candidates on my own just as I was starting from these regions of the world because they’re like is this just like an online job scan? Is this something that like is real working in America, working online? So it’s like I was kind of battling up the mountain moving up the the hill when I was trying to kind of come over this this belief that they had. And so I was like, how can I how can I change this? How can I make it, not as much of a barrier to getting candidates? And so that’s how the the name started.

James Kademan [00:33:44]:
You know, it’s so interesting you say that because they the, the name in, oh my gosh. All the businesses that I had is crazy how you kinda think of the name, just whatever. This is a name and how much is kind of a judging a book by its cover kinda thing. People look at that name and they’re like, oh, it means this. And here’s the judgments I have based on those, whatever, 2, 3 words.

Benjamin Morone [00:34:11]:
Yeah.

James Kademan [00:34:11]:
And I on the one hand, you’re just like, yeah, people make judgments, human nature, get it. On the other hand, you’re like, man, you don’t know anything about me or my business.

Benjamin Morone [00:34:20]:
Yeah. Exactly.

James Kademan [00:34:22]:
It’s very interesting just going to trade shows, how I have gone to trade shows before, specifically for a vertical. And I’m speaking, specific specifically on Auto Glass. We changed our name for that trade show to Auto Glass Answers or something like that. Because when people heard of the broad call answering service, they’re like, oh, you don’t know our industry.

Benjamin Morone [00:34:45]:
Oh, yeah. That makes sense.

James Kademan [00:34:47]:
So we show up as specifically auto glass answers, and they’re like, oh my gosh. They flocked to us. Flocked to us. It was crazy. But they had that assumption that we knew what we were doing, which in the end, we did on both scales, but but it was that judgment as they’re walking past your booth. They gotta decide in less than 3 seconds unless they’re taking a pen if they’re gonna stop at your booth or not. And it was interesting. I’ll just send little name tweak can change you from getting business to not even having a conversation.

Benjamin Morone [00:35:19]:
Yeah. Very interesting. That’s definitely true. Yeah.

James Kademan [00:35:22]:
Tell me about your recruiting process because I imagine Mhmm. Once you get good at what you’re doing, you have people coming to you that wanna work Mhmm. And none of them none of them are gonna be a great fit for your business. So how do you go about recruiting?

Benjamin Morone [00:35:35]:
Yeah. So it starts with, obviously, meeting with the client and making sure we’re kinda on the same page, able to service the client in a good way and be successful with them. But then it goes to the job descriptions. So when I first started I was kind of just being like okay client in the Calendly form it was like do you have a job description please put like the link if you don’t like that’s okay we’ll create one. And I found that what happens is with ChatChipt, people are like, okay, I need to hire an executive assistant. I’ll just put ChatChipt, create an executive assistant subscription for me in 20 hours a week. Right? And the thing is everyone can recognize JetHPT, like, it’s not that hard and it’s very lengthy. It’s very verbose with with all what it says.

Benjamin Morone [00:36:15]:
And so we realized that, like, okay, we need to make job descriptions that cut through the noise. And so really making a job description that is is magnetic. So not using, like, cliche language, not saying, like, we’re looking for a data driven guru or wizard who can, like, do this. Right? Like, people see those and they just, like, cringe and shut off. That’s what we found. That’s what my recruiter said. She was like, I applied to your job because you didn’t have anything like that. You don’t have like these weird buzzwords and it was just very short and you told me what I needed to know, the skills that I needed, the time zone, salary, like those types of things we we display.

Benjamin Morone [00:36:52]:
And people can make a quick judgment on if they’re gonna apply or not. It also keeps away it just protects our time it keeps away a lot of just getting a bunch of applicants. And then having to go through a bunch of screening calls and figure out 10 minutes from the screening call with 5 different applicants that it’s it’s not gonna be a fit because they don’t know the certain type of software.

James Kademan [00:37:12]:
So how do you once they apply, they’re all good there. I imagine you have to go through an interview process of some kind. Right?

Benjamin Morone [00:37:20]:
Yeah. So typically screening calls, 10, 15 minutes screening calls. The reason it’s so short is because we make it about them. We don’t really ask about the job as much. So we’re not saying in the beginning of the call, I’m not gonna go and say, hey James, this is for this marketing manager role. This is everything you need to know about the company. This is what we’re looking for blah blah blah. I’m not gonna speak for for 2 minutes in the beginning.

Benjamin Morone [00:37:45]:
Instead I’m gonna tell them, hey, this is the the title of the role. It’s for in our in our position it’s for our client company they work in the aerospace industry let’s just use that as an example. It’s this many hours a week and then we just start asking about the resume versus hey, I wanna know a little bit more about your experience here from June 2018 to to June 2020 and making it more about them. Because what I found is if I tell people everything that we’re looking for in the very beginning, they just mold their their resume to what they think I wanna hear. And so it just makes it way harder to make a decision on, like, is this interview process, is this candidate that’s interviewing as good as they say they are versus when we do the screening interview and it’s kinda like flipped, we can just figure out, okay, this person is just speaking freely. And they speak freely, and then we figure out, okay, is this person we wanna bring them to the next round? We wanna bring them into a text test interview or, sorry, a skill test? And that’s kind of the biggest thing with the the interviews that we found. So initially, a screening call. After that, it’ll either go to a skill test or a a more in-depth interview.

Benjamin Morone [00:38:50]:
Sometimes it’s a little bit interchangeable with the skill test and the the second round interview, but the skill test, it should really it should really mirror, whatever they’re gonna do in the 1st 30 days. So not everything they’re gonna do in the 1st 30 days, but let’s say you’re hiring a sales rep, they need to build outbound email campaigns, maybe they need to find some ideal client profiles. Well, a skill test could be, why don’t you build 4 emails, not just a a single sequence of 4 emails, and then find me 3 or 4 ICPs that you think are are ideal client profiles on LinkedIn and write why you think they’re good ideal client profiles. Like, don’t outreach to them, but just write why. And you can kinda see what is their thinking when they’re gonna be doing prospecting. For, like, an appointment center, sales development representative, those are are good test tests. You wanted to actually, like, mirror what they’re actually gonna be doing, so you can actually get a good judgment off it instead of it just being like, hey. Chat should be t.

Benjamin Morone [00:39:46]:
Can you tell me, like, what a good skill test is? You know?

James Kademan [00:39:50]:
Oh, that’s awesome. So when it comes to let’s just run down the road of the essentially outsourced sales. Mhmm. Is there a language barrier or, an accent barrier, or how do you get over that?

Benjamin Morone [00:40:04]:
So for that, that’s part of the reason I started staffing in in Latin America. I was getting a lot of requests for sales reps mainly like SDRs kind of front end stuff a lot of like cold calling, outbound, those types of positions and with Europe I love Europe, I love Poland, I love living here. But especially let’s say if they’re from Ukraine it can be harder to to lose their accent. They have the thick kind of Russian, Ukraine, Slavic accent and even my girlfriend here she speaks very good English but but she still has an accent and sometimes it’s hard to understand her right? And so, I realized with Latin America it’s like so many people work in call centers they work sales positions down there and especially for like banks and different things like that and financial industries where they’re gonna be speaking on the phone to hundreds of people that the English is so dialed in in Latin America, especially Colombia, Argentina, that we do everything we can to to minimize any type of of accent stuff. And if the business is located in the southern US, being bilingual helps, and they already speak Spanish. So it’s perfect.

James Kademan [00:41:09]:
Nice. Very cool. Mhmm. You know, it’s interesting you mentioned that. We actually with the call answering service, I have years well, I guess it was in the beginning of pandemic. We hired a company that had, some Filipino people, and we were sold no accents, man. Here, look at listen to these samples. Listen to these samples.

James Kademan [00:41:31]:
They sound great. Some of them even sounded better than people that we had. Not all the people, but many of the people that we had. Yeah. Like, this is phenomenal. I won’t have to deal with employees ever again. This is gonna be great. The people that we actually got, though, oh my gosh.

James Kademan [00:41:45]:
We would have callers actually hear them and then just hang up and try again.

Benjamin Morone [00:41:50]:
Oh man.

James Kademan [00:41:50]:
Try to get someone that they can understand. And it was, it was so interesting because it was like what the sales guy was selling and what we were given or sold, I guess, were

Benjamin Morone [00:42:03]:
Mhmm. Sold on. Yeah.

James Kademan [00:42:04]:
Very different things. And I joked with the managers that we had because managers were Filipino as well. And I’m like, you guys are incredible. Can we get you to answer the phone? Cause you guys you guys are dialed in. Yeah. Sounded incredible. And they’re like, yeah. No.

James Kademan [00:42:22]:
So it’s very interesting how that I mean, that was one experience and I’m amongst, whatever, many, many, many other call centers that are doing it successfully. But it was interesting how we just, woah, I had bad taste in my mouth from that. Mainly a financial one, because that was a very expensive lesson and what not to do. Yeah. But, yeah, that’s that’s how the game goes, I guess.

Benjamin Morone [00:42:46]:
Yeah. It’s always gonna depend on the the role and especially for something like sales. Like, it’s kind of like what we were talking about where people make snap snap judgments.

James Kademan [00:42:54]:
Is

Benjamin Morone [00:42:54]:
it right? No, but it’s human nature and people make those judgments snap and it’s the difference between you getting business and getting someone staying on the phone when you interrupt them when they’re having their morning coffee to listen to your sales pitch. Or just someone hanging up right? And so, the sales side of things that’s why we’re hiring from Latin America, that’s why we’re super focused on Latin America and we really, really English is that top priority. With some other roles let’s say in like Europe, non client facing stuff, they have good English here too. But if you need someone who’s gonna design emails and someone who’s a really good graphic designer who’s just gonna be communicating internally with the project manager, that person can have a slight accent and it’s no issue, right? And so it just really depends on the the role like sales has to be A1 has to be perfect, but someone who has a a slight accent, or sounds like a a second generation, individual in the in the states, it’s it’s fine. You know?

James Kademan [00:43:48]:
Yeah. Yeah. Because they’re not necessarily front facing, at least not verbally front facing as far as that goes. When somebody comes to you, a potential client, can they come to you, or do they come to you with something vague? Like, I need a a marketing person, or I need a I don’t don’t know if they come to you for deep stuff like chief financial officers, stuff like that. Or do they come to you with Vague, or they have very specific dialed in things that they’re asking

Benjamin Morone [00:44:11]:
for? So it really depends. I find the newer ones say, I need help. I just don’t know who I need. That’s why I’m here on the call today like that’s when I’m asking them questions. What I found is they need to have an understanding of what type of role they would they would need, but not not just that but it’s like the the actual tasks. What is this person going to be doing? If you’re super overwhelmed and you book a call because you want to learn more about maybe an executive assistant, virtual assistant, you need to know what they’re gonna do. And it’s part of the reason I suggested the time audit in the beginning of our conversation is just because that will tell you not what you think you’re spending all your time on it will tell you what you are spending your time on, right? And so they will actually give you that visibility that tracking those metrics so you can be like, okay, I’m actually wasting 4 or 5 hours per week or I’m wasting 10 hours a week that I could delegate. What I found is being vague around sales.

Benjamin Morone [00:45:07]:
Everyone wants to grow their business, a lot of people don’t want to do outreach they’re they’re uncomfortable with that, but you’re not gonna be able to hire someone from let’s say Colombia or or Argentina and just magically have them just go grab you more business. Right? They need lead sources. They need kind of a method and as a business owner or whoever you are, you need to kind of be the the brains behind the operation and be like, okay we’re getting some some success with this. It’s kind of like a little fire going with the sales stuff. Maybe it’s cold email, maybe it’s linked in outreach, whatever it is. Whatever method you’re using for for outreach. Let’s go get some more outsource talent. We’re gonna pour gasoline on the fire and get it growing.

Benjamin Morone [00:45:42]:
And so that’s really what I’m trying to figure out in the sales roles is because someone who comes and they’re like I just want my business to kind of magically grow or they don’t really have a plan. It’s not gonna be a good client it’s not gonna be successful for that candidate who gets placed because they’re being asked this huge tall order.

James Kademan [00:45:59]:
Mhmm.

Benjamin Morone [00:46:00]:
And it’s just not it’s just not realistic. And so I wanna make sure that the expectations are met on on all parties.

James Kademan [00:46:07]:
Gotcha. Are there any things that you don’t recruit for? I guess maybe that’s easier than what you do recruit.

Benjamin Morone [00:46:13]:
Yeah. So anything c suite, I haven’t I haven’t really done any of those. I’ve done, like, head of marketing and and those types of roles, but nothing c suite.

James Kademan [00:46:22]:
Gotcha. Okay. Mhmm. That’s easy enough. Yeah. Or hard enough. I don’t know. Tell me about the trust factor because I imagine you run into a situation similar to us, right, where we’re selling a service, and trust is a huge factor that it’s very difficult to convince people that they can trust you.

James Kademan [00:46:43]:
Right? Without them actually trying the service, right, because we with the call answering service, we’re like, hey. Send all of your calls to us. We’ll treat people super well, get them on the schedule, and be awesome. We know that we’re awesome, but we have a hard time helping people understand that we are awesome without them actually trying it. Right? And I imagine you in the same situation. You’re like, hey, man. We got these programmers. We got these project managers.

James Kademan [00:47:06]:
This is super awesome. They happen to be across an ocean, not a big deal. How do you get that trust?

Benjamin Morone [00:47:14]:
Client testimonials, case studies, client interviews. So sitting down with a client, hopping on a 10 minute Zoom call, and recording just like, hey, where were you at before our service? What was the process like during? Where you at after? Do you have anything you want to say about, Zibota or or someone who’s on the fence about working with outsourced talent? Or what did you believe was a myth but it wasn’t actually true? Client interviews can can really really help. What I found is if someone sees okay you have an exact testimonial for someone in my niche for this exact role those are always super super strong the person’s gonna resonate with that a ton compared to if it’s the exact role and it’s a totally different niche. Because people in their mind they’re always like does this it work for those people, but is it gonna work for me?

James Kademan [00:47:59]:
You know

Benjamin Morone [00:47:59]:
like even if they see 200 testimonials if they don’t see someone who’s kinda in their niche kinda similar to them there’s gonna be more of a barrier on them even reaching out or hopping on a call or just responding to a message. And so I think it’s really documenting the case studies, documenting the the client results. And it’s something that after we finish with a client you know, we check-in and we ask them if they’d be open to it. If they’re not open to it that’s totally fine, they don’t they’re not forced to give us testimonial it’s not like that. But if they’re not open to it like what’s feedback? How how can we make it better? How can we make it like worthy of their their praise? And so it’s you just win in that scenario. You know? You either get a testimonial and and the person also does give you feedback, but you don’t get a testimonial and you learn what you can improve and and do better to to make it more attractive.

James Kademan [00:48:45]:
That’s so interesting you say that because it’s we’ve been fighting I use the word fighting. I don’t know if it’s the right word to use, but we’ve been trying to get as many reviews and testimonials as we possibly can. And even for the book that I wrote, trying to get reviews and stuff like that, it is so tough. Or it’s almost like you wanna piss people off intentionally. You kinda thinking about this in the back of your head because then they would be angry enough to leave at least a bad review. You don’t want bad reviews, but it’s one of those things where, like, a good review takes you 30 seconds. And even business owners understand that a review is a big deal. Right? But still you’re like, hey, man.

James Kademan [00:49:23]:
And they’ll send us an email saying you guys are super awesome. I don’t know how I’d live without you guys. And we’ll be like, great. Would you mind putting that in this review and we give them the link? And it doesn’t happen.

Benjamin Morone [00:49:33]:
Yeah. What what does it

James Kademan [00:49:35]:
take then? What does it take?

Benjamin Morone [00:49:37]:
Yeah. I think it’s partly I think it’s partly, like, what what time or what sequence in the the emotional and client journey you ask. Are their emotions gonna be high where they just got this this new employee, everything’s good, maybe it’s the 1st 2 weeks and they’ve got the weight lifted off their shoulders. That’s the time to ask for a testimonial. It’s really hard to to collect testimonials. I would say past like a 2 week point after you delivering your service. What I found is my outreach to people and I’m like, hey, like we’re doing this thing we’re trying to get more reviews. It’s like I sent it to an email list and I get like 2 people who respond, you know, like and so I found it’s it’s really about the timing of when you’re asking.

James Kademan [00:50:16]:
You know, you raise a very good point there because I we’ve been asking clients that have been with us for years, some more than 10. And I’m like, why would they not they obviously like us. Right?

Benjamin Morone [00:50:28]:
Yeah.

James Kademan [00:50:28]:
But I guess we missed that boat before reviews were even a thing or much of

Benjamin Morone [00:50:34]:
a thing.

James Kademan [00:50:35]:
Oh, that’s funny. That is funny. Benjamin, where can people find you?

Benjamin Morone [00:50:40]:
Yeah. So zoboda. Io, is our website, on Twitter or x as I guess as it’s called now. Just Benjamin Marrone from my last name, m o r o n e, and then also, newsletter. So I am from Europe and latam.com.

James Kademan [00:50:56]:
Right on. And if someone was interested in checking out your services more, the website will will hold their hand?

Benjamin Morone [00:51:04]:
Yes. There’s a video on there that’s 3 minutes and just kinda explains the the recruitment process and what it could look like if we work together.

James Kademan [00:51:11]:
Nice. Super cool. Benjamin, I appreciate you being on the show.

Benjamin Morone [00:51:15]:
Hey. Thanks so much, James. Thanks for the opportunity.

James Kademan [00:51:17]:
You bet. Happy to have you. This has been Authentic Business Adventures, the business program that brings you the struggle stories and triumphant successes of business owners across the land. My name is James Kademan and Authentic Business Adventures is brought to you by Calls on Call, offering call answering and receptionist services for service businesses across the country on the web at callsoncall.com. And of course, bold business book, a book for the entrepreneur in all of us, available wherever fine books are sold. If you’re listening to this on the web, you could do us a huge favor, keep the algorithm happy, give us a big old thumbs up, subscribe, and of course, share it with your entrepreneurial friends, especially those entrepreneurs that may be having a little bit, we’ll call it, too much on their plate, and they need to outsource that a little bit so that they can have the freedom that their business was supposed to give them. We’d like to thank you, our wonderful listeners, as well as our guest, Benjamin Morone of Zabota. Benjamin, can you give us that website one more time?

Benjamin Morone [00:52:13]:
Yep. It’s zabota.io. So zabota.io.

James Kademan [00:52:19]:
Perfect. Past episodes can be found morning, noon, and night. The podcast link is found at drawandcustomers.com. Thank you for listening. We will see you next week. I want you to stay awesome. And if you do nothing else, enjoy your business.